Your move with AKo? ($16 turbo)

[nogenius]

PokerStars Game #3802318777: Tournament #18884123, Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2006/01/29 - 23:38:52 (ET)
Table '18884123 1' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: daniel$on10 (1530 in chips)
Seat 2: Waterville (3110 in chips)
Seat 3: bogeyjim (1430 in chips)
Seat 4: JimmyGi (1430 in chips)
Seat 5: albatross18 (1470 in chips)
Seat 7: Weel&Deel (1650 in chips)
Seat 8: im nogenius (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: coffeeman47 (1380 in chips)
Weel&Deel: posts small blind 10
im nogenius: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to im nogenius [Ac Ks]
coffeeman47: folds
daniel$on10: folds
Waterville: folds
bogeyjim: raises 180 to 200
JimmyGi: folds
albatross18: folds
Weel&Deel: folds
im nogenius: ???

---

No real reads, as it was very early in the turbo.

Would you call, raise, or fold here?

Thanks in advance.

[Rockymv]

I'd push, but I'm on tilt.

[thnwkd]

Big raise, i think aces/kings/queens raise to about t120, probably AJ+,99-JJ. depends on if you want to race. I'd probably push.

[Bluffalufagus]

he bet 200 with 20 blind. no reason to play this hand this early with all of your original chips.

[thnwkd]

he bet 200 with 20 blind. no reason to play this hand this early with all of your original chips.

this is a turbo my freind. Im not laying AK at the very least i call.

[Bluffalufagus]

Turbo doesnt mean you have to give your chips away. Calling would be the max I do here but if you miss you're giving you're chips away cause he is going to bet on the flop for sure. I'm sure a lot of people will push and have a fun little race there. But I feel I dont have to make my first hand of a tourney a race and cross my fingers. I'm a better player then that.

[Bluffalufagus]

i didnt say in my first post to fold, i said no reason to play this hand for all your chips like the prior two people had said that they would push all in

[konahead]

call and put out a probe bet of 300 on the flop. It's probably cheaper than raising preflop, and you're OOP for the hand.

[WildBobAA]

Calling is stupid. Push

[Trikflow77]

Calling is stupid. Push

agreed....raise or fold........

[Bluffalufagus]

what was the result of that hand?

[zarry]

no need for a call push over top no questions asked its a turbo

[DaNutsInYoEye]

I push AK all the time wether I'm opening or coming over the top in turbos $25+2 and below. I seriously doubt the guy has AA or KK. In my experience, the over bet typically means weakness more than it does strength at these levels. "I have a pretty good hand, but it's not that great. I don't want to play it on a scary flop so I'm content to take the pot down here."

The range of hands people raise with here and the range of hands people call with is so wide in the lower level turbos that pushing AK pre-flop every time you get it is +EV. You get so many calls against people with AQ, AJ, even Ax, KQ, etc. even at the early blind levels. You get a lot of calls from people with PP as well, but that's obviously not a disaster if you have AK. Not to mention that if you have AK, the odds of a paticular opponent having AA or KK are cut in half.

[Bluffalufagus]

maybe thats why i quit playing low limit poker

[Bluffalufagus]

my point wasnt him having AA or KK, it was having any pair. Why give yourself a 50% chance of losing the tourney this early just to be tied for first place with 8 people still remaining. I prefer building my stack by playing hands with a higher then 50% chance of winning unless i'm forced to push for a race. Racing seems to me like it should be a last resort. I know a lot of people who play do rely on luck so maybe a push would be good at this point for a lot of players. But for me I know I can build my stack without relying on this sort of action.

[mcatdog]

Why are you so fixated on him having a pocket pair. He could have A3 for all we know. A 10*BB raise is a raise that a good player would not make with any hand, so we already know that this opponent sucks. It's pointless to even attempt to put him on a hand. He just got dealt two cards that looked pretty and decided to throw in 200 chips. I've seen people turn over jack high after they make this type of overbet.

Yes, if we know he has a pocket pair, we're better off folding, but not by much. Since there are a whole bunch of other hands he could have where we're way better off going all-in, that's obviously what we should do.

I'd also like to know how you plan on finding better situations to build your stack if you fold AK to a single raise. You only get dealt AA-QQ once every 70 hands or so.

[Bluffalufagus]

My point is all these fish getting knocked out of tournies by throwing all their chips in the pot pre flop with an AK for no other reason then it was AK when they dont need to be making a play like this at the current time. Like you said, you have no idea what this player could have right now, so what's the point. A lot of bad players also bet huge with huge hands so it could work either way. Why not wait until you at least have some sort of a clue what type of player he is then make this type of play. If you're gonna shove all your chips in and go for a race make sure you at least know the players at your table enough to be sure its going to be a race.

[Bluffalufagus]

I guess my thinking comes from the fact that I dont play the cards too much any more. I'm more of a strike at the sign of weakness type player and with absolutely zero reads on the table so far this guy to me looks extremely strong by a 10xbb bet. I push AK all the time, don't get me wrong it's a solid hand, but I do it when I can say to myself that I am dominating this guy.

[SnoT_III]

I think the key here is turbo. You can't camp and wait for good hands. Even though it is early in the tournament, your chipstack is everything in turbo. With the exception of AA or KK, you are at worst 50%, and more likely dominating in the hand. I push this every time.

[Sprayed]

For me a push is standard here.

[thnwkd]

what was the result of that hand?

this is telling.... do you see why

[storm75m]

I <3 pushing over the top with AK preflop...
I think one reason people lose more than they should with AK is because they don't bet big enough preflop and give their opp a good chance to fold... Think about it, if there's only a 10-25% chance that they might fold, this play is +EV against any hand but AA and KK.

[zenbitz]

stop-n-go.
I think the odds of him having nonsense are about as likely as AA/KK. He probably has TT/JJ/QQ/AK/AQs. I am only really happy about 2 of those hands... but I agree I can't really lay down AK in a turbo.

It's 10 BB but it's only 200 chips. How would you play AK from BB when the blinds are 25/50? Well, you'd probably push....

Push is OK here (see 5 cards), but If he holds QQ and flop comes KXX you are going to get a call if you push flop. AXX... not so much.

[mcatdog]

He probably has TT/JJ/QQ/AK/AQs.

If you're giving a random opponent that much credit, you probably shouldn't even be playing sit-and-gos, because you won't beat the rake if your opponents are only raising with those hands. I ran into a guy a couple of times this afternoon who had a VPIP of well over 60%, and as far as I could tell, was willing to go all-in preflop with any ace, king, queen, jack, or ten. I know this because he called my 8-BB bubble push with T5o and flopped trips.

My point being, the majority of the players at a $16 turbo are pretty damn stupid, and you'll cost yourself money by giving them credit for a real hand every time they make a huge raise. The odds of this player having a horrible hand (one that you [i]want[i] to get all-in preflop against) are quite high. The stop-and-go is a good play against weak-tight players, not so much against idiots who will call all-in preflop with their shitty hand but will actually fold if it misses the flop.

[TLR]

Tough spot

If you push he is likely to fold low-mid PP and will likely call for a coinflip with AA-TT.
He could also call with AQ

However it is too early even in turbo to risk it I think, I would fold

[zenbitz]

He probably has TT/JJ/QQ/AK/AQs.

If you're giving a random opponent that much credit, you probably shouldn't even be playing sit-and-gos, because you won't beat the rake if your opponents are only raising with those hands.

Probably. PROBABLY. Not certainly. He certainly could have nothing. He could also be overbetting with AA because he read on line somewhere that $16 Turbo SNG players are fish and someone will call... But unless he's exactly the kind of moron that raises (10X no less!) with nothing pre-flop and then folds with nothing on the flop, I think you are (slightly) better off calling here and playing post-flop.

This is not a normal raise. At all. Ever. It's a totally bizzare overbet, and as such deserves some consideration with no read. There are several possibilities:

1) It's a action starved maniac playing any face card hard.
2) It's a weak/tighty praying for HU domination with AK or JJ-AA
3) It's a loose fish who overvalues hands. Unfortunatley, his range is going to be like: AT-AK, 66+. Including KK/AA.

Note that non of the 3 are "good player" so I would hope that you can outplay them post flop given you have *some* chip room to manuver in.

[WildBobAA]

This is a $16, it's probably some moron with QJo.

[zenbitz]

This is a $16, it's probably some moron with QJo.

Can anyone find 10 HH from $16T SNG where someone open raises 10x with blinds 10/20 with anything less than AT/55?

[thnwkd]

Today i was in sb with pk 10s bb = T50. several limpers, opp on btn makes it T700. he has me covered by T100, I push he calls and turns over 77. A big raise like this normally means a small - medium pk pair. I still push here.

mcatdog care to share the name of villian?

[mcatdog]

His name is Abandon1987. Here are a couple of hand histories from him.

PokerStars Game #3806855892: Tournament #18908072, Hold'em No Limit -
Level I (10/20) - 2006/01/30 - 14:32:03 (ET)
Table '18908072 1' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: p1r4te (1460 in chips)
Seat 2: ArnVikings (1490 in chips)
Seat 3: bigJ33210 (1600 in chips)
Seat 4: bever38 (1480 in chips)
Seat 5: BigBerm24 (1460 in chips)
Seat 6: Abandon1987 (1610 in chips)
Seat 7: TRIGGER1964 (1400 in chips)
Seat 8: mcatdog (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: x24696 (1500 in chips)
bever38: posts small blind 10
BigBerm24: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mcatdog [Ad Td]
Abandon1987: calls 20
TRIGGER1964: calls 20
mcatdog: folds
x24696: folds
p1r4te: calls 20
ArnVikings: folds
bigJ33210: folds
bever38: calls 10
BigBerm24 has timed out
BigBerm24: folds
*** FLOP *** [9s 7h 8d]
BigBerm24 is sitting out
bever38: checks
Abandon1987: checks
TRIGGER1964: checks
p1r4te: bets 80
bever38: folds
Abandon1987: calls 80
TRIGGER1964: calls 80
*** TURN *** [9s 7h 8d] [9d]
Abandon1987: checks
TRIGGER1964: checks
p1r4te: bets 180
Abandon1987: calls 180
TRIGGER1964: folds
*** RIVER *** [9s 7h 8d 9d] [Th]
Abandon1987: checks
p1r4te: bets 120
Abandon1987: calls 120
*** SHOW DOWN ***
p1r4te: shows [6c 9c] (a straight, Six to Ten)
Abandon1987: mucks hand
p1r4te collected 940 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 940 | Rake 0
Board [9s 7h 8d 9d Th]
Seat 1: p1r4te showed [6c 9c] and won (940) with a straight, Six to Ten
Seat 2: ArnVikings folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: bigJ33210 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: bever38 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: BigBerm24 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: Abandon1987 mucked [Kc 2s]
Seat 7: TRIGGER1964 folded on the Turn
Seat 8: mcatdog folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: x24696 folded before Flop (didn't bet)


PokerStars Game #3806929125: Tournament #18908072, Hold'em No Limit -
Level III (25/50) - 2006/01/30 - 14:41:23 (ET)
Table '18908072 1' Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: p1r4te (2250 in chips)
Seat 2: ArnVikings (1360 in chips)
Seat 3: bigJ33210 (1200 in chips)
Seat 4: bever38 (1330 in chips)
Seat 5: BigBerm24 (1425 in chips)
Seat 6: Abandon1987 (2160 in chips)
Seat 7: TRIGGER1964 (865 in chips)
Seat 8: mcatdog (1560 in chips)
Seat 9: x24696 (1350 in chips)
bigJ33210: posts small blind 25
bever38: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mcatdog [5s Td]
BigBerm24: folds
Abandon1987: calls 50
TRIGGER1964: folds
mcatdog: folds
x24696: raises 100 to 150
p1r4te: folds
ArnVikings: folds
bigJ33210: calls 125
bever38: folds
Abandon1987: calls 100
*** FLOP *** [Kc 7c 9h]
bigJ33210: checks
Abandon1987: checks
x24696: bets 150
bigJ33210: folds
Abandon1987: calls 150
*** TURN *** [Kc 7c 9h] [3s]
Abandon1987: bets 50
x24696: raises 150 to 200
Abandon1987: calls 150
*** RIVER *** [Kc 7c 9h 3s] [7s]
Abandon1987: checks
x24696: bets 200
Abandon1987: calls 200
*** SHOW DOWN ***
x24696: shows [Qs Ah] (a pair of Sevens)
Abandon1987: shows [3d Jd] (two pair, Sevens and Threes)
Abandon1987 collected 1600 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1600 | Rake 0
Board [Kc 7c 9h 3s 7s]
Seat 1: p1r4te folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: ArnVikings (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: bigJ33210 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: bever38 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: BigBerm24 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Abandon1987 showed [3d Jd] and won (1600) with two pair, Sevens
and Threes
Seat 7: TRIGGER1964 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: mcatdog folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: x24696 showed [Qs Ah] and lost with a pair of Sevens


PokerStars Game #3806978264: Tournament #18908072, Hold'em No Limit -
Level IV (50/100) - 2006/01/30 - 14:47:36 (ET)
Table '18908072 1' Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: ArnVikings (1110 in chips)
Seat 3: bigJ33210 (1300 in chips)
Seat 4: bever38 (1055 in chips)
Seat 5: BigBerm24 (1350 in chips)
Seat 6: Abandon1987 (7175 in chips)
Seat 8: mcatdog (1510 in chips)
bigJ33210: posts small blind 50
bever38: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mcatdog [As 6d]
BigBerm24: folds
Abandon1987: calls 100
mcatdog: folds
ArnVikings: calls 100
bigJ33210: raises 300 to 400
bever38: folds
Abandon1987: calls 300
ArnVikings: folds
*** FLOP *** [9c Th 7h]
bigJ33210: bets 300
Abandon1987: raises 300 to 600
bigJ33210: raises 300 to 900 and is all-in
Abandon1987: calls 300
*** TURN *** [9c Th 7h] [3c]
*** RIVER *** [9c Th 7h 3c] [6c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
bigJ33210: shows [9h 9s] (three of a kind, Nines)
Abandon1987: shows [Tc 4h] (a pair of Tens)
bigJ33210 collected 2800 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2800 | Rake 0
Board [9c Th 7h 3c 6c]
Seat 2: ArnVikings (button) folded before Flop
Seat 3: bigJ33210 (small blind) showed [9h 9s] and won (2800) with
three of a kind, Nines
Seat 4: bever38 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: BigBerm24 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Abandon1987 showed [Tc 4h] and lost with a pair of Tens
Seat 8: mcatdog folded before Flop (didn't bet)


PokerStars Game #3806996390: Tournament #18908072, Hold'em No Limit -
Level V (75/150) - 2006/01/30 - 14:49:54 (ET)
Table '18908072 1' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 3: bigJ33210 (2800 in chips)
Seat 4: bever38 (905 in chips)
Seat 5: BigBerm24 (1175 in chips)
Seat 6: Abandon1987 (7110 in chips)
Seat 8: mcatdog (1510 in chips)
Abandon1987: posts small blind 75
mcatdog: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mcatdog [5s Td]
bigJ33210: folds
bever38: raises 300 to 450
BigBerm24: folds
Abandon1987: calls 375
mcatdog: folds
*** FLOP *** [Ts Qd Jh]
Abandon1987: checks
bever38: checks
*** TURN *** [Ts Qd Jh] [2c]
Abandon1987: checks
bever38: checks
*** RIVER *** [Ts Qd Jh 2c] [5d]
Abandon1987: bets 150
bever38: calls 150
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Abandon1987: shows [8s 2d] (a pair of Deuces)
bever38: shows [9h 9d] (a pair of Nines)
bever38 collected 1350 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1350 | Rake 0
Board [Ts Qd Jh 2c 5d]
Seat 3: bigJ33210 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: bever38 showed [9h 9d] and won (1350) with a pair of Nines
Seat 5: BigBerm24 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Abandon1987 (small blind) showed [8s 2d] and lost with a pair
of Deuces
Seat 8: mcatdog (big blind) folded before Flop


PokerStars Game #3807011313: Tournament #18908072, Hold'em No Limit -
Level V (75/150) - 2006/01/30 - 14:51:49 (ET)
Table '18908072 1' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 3: bigJ33210 (2800 in chips)
Seat 4: bever38 (1505 in chips)
Seat 5: BigBerm24 (1175 in chips)
Seat 6: Abandon1987 (6735 in chips)
Seat 8: mcatdog (1285 in chips)
bever38: posts small blind 75
BigBerm24: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mcatdog [Ac 8s]
Abandon1987: calls 150
mcatdog: raises 1135 to 1285 and is all-in
bigJ33210: folds
bever38: folds
BigBerm24: folds
Abandon1987: calls 1135
*** FLOP *** [9s 5h 5c]
*** TURN *** [9s 5h 5c] [Ad]
*** RIVER *** [9s 5h 5c Ad] [Qs]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Abandon1987: shows [5s Th] (three of a kind, Fives)
mcatdog: shows [Ac 8s] (two pair, Aces and Fives)
Abandon1987 collected 2795 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2795 | Rake 0
Board [9s 5h 5c Ad Qs]
Seat 3: bigJ33210 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: bever38 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: BigBerm24 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: Abandon1987 showed [5s Th] and won (2795) with three of a kind,
Fives
Seat 8: mcatdog showed [Ac 8s] and lost with two pair, Aces and Fives


This player folded preflop 4 times in the 23 hands that I lasted in this particular sit-and-go. I would normally never push over a limper with A8, but I made an exception for this individual.

[nickthefool]

The other day in a $10 SnG on stars, i get AA first hand in bb, someone raises to 60, then a reraise to 240. I make it 500 to go, original raiser folds, reraiser calls. He pushes a flop which doesnt look scary to me (i think it was Q84 or something), i naturally call, and he turns over 86o. He of course finds a 6 on the river, but that's irrelevant.

Also, on sunday in a $3 MTT 2nd hand i raise to 60 with AK from the button, bb reraises to 240, i push over, he calls with QJo.

There are a lot of fish out there. They just don't often hang around very long.

In answer to original post, i push because i'm more than likely ahead of opp's calling range.

[konahead]

WildBob and Trik - I realize you guys feel calling is stupid.... And I want to understand it - you guys play at higher buy-ins than me.....

I looked at it as... - if I make a decent raise, say to 600, I might as well push, since I want to see all 5 cards and a raise that size commits me anyway. But I don't want to risk my whole tourney at the 30 blind range, especially against an opp I know I can outplay later. And obviously I don't like folding AKo against this type of opp. (I'd probably fold to a raise like that from a real tight player.....)

so I figured if I don't want to push, and I don't want to fold - then calling and seeing a flop is my only alternative...

is it really that bad/stupid against this type of player? And if so, why?

thanks in advance

edit: btw - i don't play turbos, but if they are the same thing as the speed tourneys on prtypoker, then yes, i push there as well. I mean on a regular sng I would call.

[thnwkd]

wow. mcatdog that is horrible play. seems to be no logic. but i noticed in some of the hand histories this guy has huge stacks, are these from suckouts or is the poor play just a ruse for later when he's pushing the nuts?

[mcatdog]

No he was an idiot, he tripled up when he hit a monster flop with some garbage hand, I played him two other times yesterday and he was the first one eliminated in both of them.

[gabe]

i fold unless he's done this alot so far

[zenbitz]

PS turbos are more like PP regular 800 chippers than PP speed tournies. The blinds on PS go up faster, but the stacks are so much deeper that they "play slower".

Can anyone find THREE examples (so far we have zero) where a donk OPEN raises in a $16T ( I will accept any comparible 1500 starting chip 1 table SNG) 10x BB level 1 with a hand worse than AT or 55? Not RERAISES... this is a much more sensible play (although often times insane)

[mcatdog]

PokerStars Game #3818065121: Tournament #18963841, Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2006/01/31 - 15:24:34 (ET)
Table '18963841 1' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: THESLOTHS1 (2575 in chips)
Seat 2: goodyK (1740 in chips)
Seat 3: Busternogood (520 in chips)
Seat 4: austin741 (1740 in chips)
Seat 5: mcatdog (1440 in chips)
Seat 6: stevedau (1450 in chips)
Seat 7: Bodtker (1120 in chips)
Seat 8: Fafish (1395 in chips)
Seat 9: ALLINAARON72 (1520 in chips)
goodyK: posts small blind 25
Busternogood: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mcatdog [2c 9c]
austin741: calls 50
mcatdog: folds
stevedau: folds
Bodtker: folds
Fafish: folds
ALLINAARON72: folds
THESLOTHS1: folds
goodyK: calls 25
Busternogood: raises 470 to 520 and is all-in
austin741: calls 470
goodyK: folds
*** FLOP *** [9d 5s 6h]
*** TURN *** [9d 5s 6h] [8d]
*** RIVER *** [9d 5s 6h 8d] [3s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Busternogood: shows [4s Ad] (high card Ace)
austin741: shows [Tc Ah] (high card Ace - Ten kicker)
austin741 collected 1090 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1090 | Rake 0
Board [9d 5s 6h 8d 3s]
Seat 1: THESLOTHS1 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: goodyK (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: Busternogood (big blind) showed [4s Ad] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 4: austin741 showed [Tc Ah] and won (1090) with high card Ace
Seat 5: mcatdog folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: stevedau folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Bodtker folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Fafish folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: ALLINAARON72 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[zenbitz]

This is, of course, a re-raise.

[konahead]

I'm assuming you're talking about the original hand..... doesn't a decent reraise commit you - and therefore if you're going to reraise you should just push?

[mcatdog]

This is, of course, a re-raise.

I always thought a re-raise meant someone else has raised already but nitpicking about these details is really missing the point. You hardly ever see a huge raise like this in the first place. I play around 25 sit-and-gos per day and I'd say I see this move less than once per day. I could ask you to post three examples of people doing this with a monster and a day later when you most likely haven't posted any, it would be pretty obtuse of me to triumphantly announce that you were wrong.

I'm aware that none of the hand histories I posted in this thread are exactly the same as the one in the OP, but the reason I posted these histories is to show that idiots will very often put a huge number of chips into the pot with a very bad hand. Once someone has done something to indicate that they are an idiot, it really doesn't make any sense to put them on a tight range of hands.

I didn't see this exact type of raise today, but I've seen it happen a few times, and it's been a mix of hands, sometimes a hand like jacks or tens that doesn't want to see a flop with overcards, sometimes a weak ace, sometimes total crap, and I believe one time I saw someone do this with aces. When I say I've seen this happen with J8o you'll just have to believe me without a hand history.