Should I have called his turn bet?

[Rabid Dog]

Should I have called his turn bet or pushed all in? My read on him was that he does try to bluff you off hands. I even took a decent size pot from him earlier with him trying to bluff the pot. Looking back, I think I lost a good pot by folding. 50 nl game. And the more I look at this, I think I had him. Am I wrong?

Players:
-mike6607- (EUR 28,05 in seat 1)
prettu (EUR 18,65 in seat 2)
jasperoo (EUR 21,00 in seat 3)
A-Laursen (EUR 26,85 in seat 4)
RN92 (EUR 75,30 in seat 5)
rabiddog (EUR 69,65 in seat 6)
Caesar76 (EUR 56,75 in seat 7)
pata5 (EUR 57,90 in seat 8)

Dealer: pata5
Small Blind: -mike6607- (0,25)
Big Blind: prettu (0,50)

rabiddog was dealt: Kc - As

jasperoo Fold
A-Laursen Fold
RN92 Call (0,50)
rabiddog Call (0,50)
Caesar76 Fold
pata5 Fold
-mike6607- Call (0,25)
prettu Check

Flop 9s - 5d - 7h

-mike6607- Check
prettu Check
RN92 Check
rabiddog Check

Turn 9s - 5d - 7h - Kh

-mike6607- Check
prettu Check
RN92 Bet (1,60)
rabiddog Raise (3,20)
-mike6607- Fold
prettu Fold
RN92 Raise (6,50)
rabiddog Raise (9,80)
RN92 Raise (31,00)
rabiddog Fold
RN92 Payback (26,10)

RN92 didn't show hand

RN92 wins: EUR 26,60
Rake: EUR 1,40
Game # 236189810 - Texas Hold'em No Limit EUR 0,25/0,50 - Table "Lund"
Game ended 2006-02-01 19:33:13 GMT+01:00

[Irisheyes]

Turn 9s - 5d - 7h - Kh

-mike6607- Check
prettu Check
RN92 Bet (1,60)
rabiddog Raise (3,20)
-mike6607- Fold
prettu Fold
RN92 Raise (6,50)

Usually I fold here but going by your read call and look for a cheap showdown.

[Bo G]

Looks like he was looking for a trap on flop (set). I dont like limping in with AK but that is just me.

[bdawg56kg]

Raise preflop everytime. As played, put in a real raise on the turn, say to $5. If he repops you, either fold or call and hope to showdown cheap. Calling the (1,60) is another option. If villian has air, you give him another chance on the river to bluff you off your hand and at the same time keep the pot size down. You also minimize your losses if he has a set. Plus you have position so you can re-evaluate based on what he does on the river. Your 4-bet (9,80) is horrible. Draws will call all day long, you open up the betting again, and you let the pot size get out of control with a marginal holding.

[Rabid Dog]

Raise preflop everytime. As played, put in a real raise on the turn, say to $5. If he repops you, either fold or call and hope to showdown cheap. Calling the (1,60) is another option. If villian has air, you give him another chance on the river to bluff you off your hand and at the same time keep the pot size down. You also minimize your losses if he has a set. Plus you have position so you can re-evaluate based on what he does on the river. Your 4-bet (9,80) is horrible. Draws will call all day long, you open up the betting again, and you let the pot size get out of control with a marginal holding.

So instead of the 4-bet, I should have just called or bet more? Also my raise on the turn was 3.20, wouldn't he have reraised a 5.00 bet also? I mean its only 1.80 more, right?

So for starters I should have raised pre-flop (how much though?). Then either called his bet on the turn or raised a min of 5.00.

Here is the read on the guy I had from earlier in the game. I had pocket 7's and a 7 comes on the flop. He bets before me and bets 1.00, I called. Turn was a low card and he bets 2.00, I called. River was another low card and the board was not paired or connected for any straight or flush. He bet 5.00 and I raised to 10.00 and he called me with nothing but an AQ which was higher than anything on the board. I won with trip 7's. Not long after I folded the hand listed above he basically did the same exact thing I just mentioned in this paragraph to another opponent who had top 2 pair and beat him. He just laughed it off. Also after I folded he asked what I had. I might have been wrong to do it but I told him Kings with Ace kicker, and he said I should have called him. Could have been baiting me for later maybe, but for some reason I doubt it.

[bdawg56kg]

Okay, starting with preflop, just raise it up 4-5xBB, whatever your standard raise was. And the reason a raise to $5 is more effective than a minraise is that it will get you better info on what your opponent has based on how he reacts to the raise, plus it charges draws more to stay in. But against this kind of maniac I suppose it might not matter too much. Anyway, onto the 4-bet. The reason it is not a great play is that it does nothing to help you. You are raising $3 into a $15 pot! OESD's and flush draws will call, and you also give better hands a chance to put more money in the pot. You have position on a manaic here, so use it. Generally the rule is when you hold a good but not lock-type hand, and you have a maniac who you suspect might be on a bluff, the correct play is to call. In the long run, calling in this situation makes you the most when you're ahead and loses the least when behind. Without a read I dump this to the flop 3-bet, but given your read, I would call the 3-bet and let him bluff the river. But if you feel like you might be beat, then dump it. Even maniacs/fish catch hands.

[natdang]

Okay, starting with preflop, just raise it up 4-5xBB, whatever your standard raise was. ... You are raising $3 into a $15 pot! OESD's and flush draws will call, and you also give better hands a chance to put more money in the pot. You have position on a manaic here, so use it. Generally the rule is when you hold a good but not lock-type hand, and you have a maniac who you suspect might be on a bluff, the correct play is to call.

word, bdawg.
i'd be slowing it down.

[Irisheyes]

Turn 9s - 5d - 7h - Kh

-mike6607- Check
prettu Check
RN92 Bet (1,60)
rabiddog Raise (3,20)
-mike6607- Fold
prettu Fold
RN92 Raise (6,50)

The main point is that here ^^ you need to make a decision based on the information you have at your disposal. You have 3 choices:
1) You're sure he is bluffing and you have the best hand
2) You think he has a better hand then you
3) You think there is a possibility you may be ahead but you don't want to commit yourself completely

and 3 responses:
1) You want to get the most value from the pot as possible. Raise the turn again and try and get him all-in. Don't raise so much that you think he will fold. With a maniac like this you can probably make it $15 at this point. Even going all in may be an action stimulent against this guy.

2) You fold obviously.

3) You want a cheap showdown so you call his raise and check or call on the river depending on what he does in front.

The important thing however is that you commit yourself to a decision, whatever that may be. What you did was splash around without any real direction or destination.

[Miffed22001]

preflop raise.
c-bet flop.
check raise turn,

but here.
fine flop.
dont min raise the turn, but do raise it.
call the reraise and try to call on the river unless you are priced very much out.

[WhiteFingers]

I think this is a totally different situation to the one previously when he bet it down to the river and showed you the AQ. In that situation he played the hand very losse passive
In this situation he has got into a rasing war with you on the turn clearly showing an interest in the action i dont think your reads from earlier can be used in this hand as it is played far different. If i had seen him making plays like this before on draws/trash i would play. However he is playing this hand very aggressivly and i think he has TPTK beat.
If he doesn't then this is one of the worst plays ever.

[WhiteFingers]

Oh yeah, i never ask what hands people had when i folded a hard decision.

It only helps them to tell me what they wish and leave me in whatever state of mind they want.

[Rabid Dog]

I think this is a totally different situation to the one previously when he bet it down to the river and showed you the AQ. In that situation he played the hand very losse passive
In this situation he has got into a rasing war with you on the turn clearly showing an interest in the action i dont think your reads from earlier can be used in this hand as it is played far different. If i had seen him making plays like this before on draws/trash i would play. However he is playing this hand very aggressivly and i think he has TPTK beat.
If he doesn't then this is one of the worst plays ever.

He actually did get into a raising war with another opponent a few hands later and lost it trying to bluff his opponent off his hand.

[Rabid Dog]

Okay, starting with preflop, just raise it up 4-5xBB, whatever your standard raise was. And the reason a raise to $5 is more effective than a minraise is that it will get you better info on what your opponent has based on how he reacts to the raise, plus it charges draws more to stay in. But against this kind of maniac I suppose it might not matter too much. Anyway, onto the 4-bet. The reason it is not a great play is that it does nothing to help you. You are raising $3 into a $15 pot! OESD's and flush draws will call, and you also give better hands a chance to put more money in the pot. You have position on a manaic here, so use it. Generally the rule is when you hold a good but not lock-type hand, and you have a maniac who you suspect might be on a bluff, the correct play is to call. In the long run, calling in this situation makes you the most when you're ahead and loses the least when behind. Without a read I dump this to the flop 3-bet, but given your read, I would call the 3-bet and let him bluff the river. But if you feel like you might be beat, then dump it. Even maniacs/fish catch hands.

Very good info here and in the following post with Irich, Miffed, natdang, WhiteFingers. All you guys seem to agree that I should have raised pre-flop (I do have trouble with this when I play 50nl. Usually play aok's counterplay at 25nl and below. I've been told at 50nl I need to kinda go a different direction). Then a continuation bet after the flop, and so on.

But the way I played it, the best way would have been just to call him on the turn and see where the river went and if I felt I had him beat there. Would have saved some money and gave myself a better chance to win some.

Thanks for the help, much appreciated.