when you try to steal and hit the flop...

[nickthefool]

$5 MTT on VC Poker - 108 players remaining of 326 starters. Blinds are at 200/400.

I have been at table about 3 orbits and played 3 hands, all consecutively, about 2 orbits ago, all of which i won without showdown.
warhorse has only played one hand since i joined the table, which he won without showdown. How do you respond to the flop bet?

[Feb 10 23:58:58] : Hand Start.
[Feb 10 23:58:58] : Seat 1 : warhorse has $7,385
[Feb 10 23:58:58] : Seat 2 : aldila has $5,765
[Feb 10 23:58:58] : Seat 3 : Jim66 has $8,760
[Feb 10 23:58:58] : Seat 4 : hc2ao has $3,270
[Feb 10 23:58:58] : Seat 5 : Da Tommo has $1,980
[Feb 10 23:58:58] : Seat 6 : bushmillsrd has $4,940
[Feb 10 23:58:58] : Seat 7 : niceflops has $3,180
[Feb 10 23:58:58] : Seat 9 : nickthefool has $8,260
[Feb 10 23:58:58] : nickthefool is the dealer.
[Feb 10 23:58:58] : warhorse posted small blind.
[Feb 10 23:58:58] : aldila posted big blind.
[Feb 10 23:58:58] : Game [43] started with 8 players.
[Feb 10 23:58:58] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Feb 10 23:58:58] : Seat 9 : nickthefool has 7d Kc
[Feb 10 23:59:06] : Jim66 folded.
[Feb 10 23:59:09] : hc2ao folded.
[Feb 10 23:59:11] : Da Tommo folded.
[Feb 10 23:59:12] : bushmillsrd folded.
[Feb 10 23:59:16] : niceflops folded.
[Feb 10 23:59:18] : nickthefool called 400 and raised 600 to 1000
[Feb 10 23:59:24] : warhorse called 800
[Feb 10 23:59:27] : aldila called 600
[Feb 10 23:59:28] : Dealing flop.
[Feb 10 23:59:28] : Board cards [Kh Qs 4s]
[Feb 10 23:59:43] : warhorse bet 1,000
[Feb 10 23:59:45] : aldila folded.
[Feb 10 23:59:55] : nickthefool ???

[aislephive]

You hit the flop okay, but when somebody leads into you there you should assume that you are beat. He could be leading with a flush draw, but top pair better kicker is more likely. I would just muck it here.

[Sprayed]

You're done with this hand. Why did you raise K7o pre-flop?

[jdubs]

You're done with this hand. Why did you raise K7o pre-flop?

see title of thread....

[Stripclubjunkie]

Muck it...

[lambchopdc]

Looks like SB is making a move to me. Possibly midpair (AQ). Do you really think AK, KQ, KJ leads out here 1st to act. Maybe, but I would normally expect him to check/raise here. Whats the point in leading out when you most likely will bet? I would play for more info. Depending on my feel of the opp. i would either call and see what he does on the turn or make it 2k. I understand thats only 2x his bet, but most of the time that gets midpair to muck. Its also a cheap stab at a $4k pot and if he comes over the top its an easy muck and u still have chips left.

[Sprayed]

You're done with this hand. Why did you raise K7o pre-flop?

see title of thread....

I saw the title, I still want to know? Why do you need to raise this hand to steal? Guess I needed to be more specific. With roughly an M of 13 I would be saving my chips for a real hand. You don't need to waist chips on a steal that may go bust. As played, you fold with a pair and weak kicker to a raise.

[mcatdog]

I mostly agree with lampchop, I think you have him crushed. I don't think you should min-raise though, isn't that just begging a good player to come over the top of you with air? The pot is pretty big, so just go all-in. If someone donk-bets into you after you raise preflop, you should give them credit for at least top pair, good kicker? Whatever. People do this to me with all kinds of crap and they usually fold when I raise them.

[Sprayed]

Not everybody is making a play or bluffing you. But, make the reraise and find out. Do you want to risk almost all of your ships on a pair and weak kicker. Yea, you might spike a 7, but villain may have you already beat with KQ.

[Andy Holt]

Not everybody is making a play or bluffing you. But, make the reraise and find out. Do you want to risk almost all of your ships on a pair and weak kicker. Yea, you might spike a 7, but villain may have you already beat with KQ.

Highly unlikely anyone leads here with a big K. I wouldn't even raise the flop.

You hit the flop okay, but when somebody leads into you there you should assume that you are beat. He could be leading with a flush draw, but top pair better kicker is more likely. I would just muck it here.

No.

You have position on him, just call his bet and see what he does on the turn. Usually weak and strong players alike will stop-n-go here with a mid pocket pair or worse to see what you do.

Not really knowing the opp, I put him on a pretty wide range here, but you're ahead of everything in it.

Don't be the one who folds when he's clearly ahead.

[nickthefool]

Ok, thanks for the responses everyone.

sprayed - on the button, tight table, if folded round to me i will normally attempt a steal, i dont feel this is wrong

lambchop & mcat - i felt i should have raised, in hindsight a raise to 2k would probably have been optimal. though i push is horrible here imo because anything beating me calls and pretty much puts me out

andy - i think most opps lead out here with big K that isn't AK, simply because of thoughts like "whenever i check an A comes and then i have to fold"

Anyway, i reraised to 3k, opp pushed, i folded. He claimed QQ, and i had no reason not to believe him, but i think he would have made that bet and folded to my bet with any Q (apart from KQ,QQ) or pocket pair (apart from KK,QQ,44). However i feel i would have got the same results with a min reraise, so that's what i probably should have done.

Though it wasn't too bad, because if opp could see my cards (no outs to beat him) he probably calls my reraise rather than pushing, and would be able to get more chips out of me, even if not very many.
So though i didnt do what i would have done if i could see his cards, he didnt do what he would have done if he could see mine, either, so it wasnt all bad. I ended up ITM and he didn't in the end anyhow hehe

[Andy Holt]

andy - i think most opps lead out here with big K that isn't AK, simply because of thoughts like "whenever i check an A comes and then i have to fold"

I sincerely disagree. I know there are no absolutes in poker, but I know that someone bets in this spot when they're not exactly sure where they are. If they know they're ahead of you (KQ or QQ etc.) they check the flop and hope you bet again.

Not everyone thinks, "oh no an ace always comes if I check so I'll bet."

Of course, my argument assumes your opponents have at least some idea of what's going on, and the fundamentals of deception in poker. Maybe that wouldn't be true in a $5 MTT setting, and people might throw in a huge donkbet after flopping a set with QQ. Whatever. I just know that even the idiots reraise QQ from the blinds when the button makes a standard raise.

[aislephive]

You hit the flop okay, but when somebody leads into you there you should assume that you are beat. He could be leading with a flush draw, but top pair better kicker is more likely. I would just muck it here.

No.

You have position on him, just call his bet and see what he does on the turn. Usually weak and strong players alike will stop-n-go here with a mid pocket pair or worse to see what you do.

Not really knowing the opp, I put him on a pretty wide range here, but you're ahead of everything in it.

Don't be the one who folds when he's clearly ahead.[/quote]

If the pot was heads up I would be more inclined to think we we were ahead here, but I don't see him leading into two other people with a hand that we have beat besides some kind of draw. KJ or KT would lead at this flop a lot of the times to "see where they're at". The problem with reraising is now you put half of your stack on the line in one hand that you probably shouldn't even have been in.

[Sprayed]

If the pot was heads up I would be more inclined to think we we were ahead here, but I don't see him leading into two other people with a hand that we have beat besides some kind of draw. KJ or KT would lead at this flop a lot of the times to "see where they're at". The problem with reraising is now you put half of your stack on the line in one hand that you probably shouldn't even have been in.

That's what I was trying to say.

[Sprayed]

Not everybody is making a play or bluffing you. But, make the reraise and find out. Do you want to risk almost all of your ships on a pair and weak kicker. Yea, you might spike a 7, but villain may have you already beat with KQ.

Highly unlikely anyone leads here with a big K. I wouldn't even raise the flop.

You hit the flop okay, but when somebody leads into you there you should assume that you are beat. He could be leading with a flush draw, but top pair better kicker is more likely. I would just muck it here.

No.

You have position on him, just call his bet and see what he does on the turn. Usually weak and strong players alike will stop-n-go here with a mid pocket pair or worse to see what you do.

Not really knowing the opp, I put him on a pretty wide range here, but you're ahead of everything in it.

Don't be the one who folds when he's clearly ahead.

If someone had a big K and hit that board why wouldn't they bet? If I had K10+ I would bet that. How are you ahead of everything? I think that everyone is getting away from what the goal was originally. You tried to steal and got called. You hit top pair with a weak kicker. Now you need to play it slow and safe. You may have the best hand, but without a better kicker you need to not risk too many chips.

[WildBobAA]

I pretty much agree with everything Andy said. If I have a big K in this spot vs a suspected steal, I'm looking to check raise here since I'm almost positive villian is gonna fire off a c-bet.

And when someone leads into me when I'm the PF raiser, it feels so weak to me, like they want to end the hand without facing a c-bet.