Would you have played this differently?

[GatorJH]

Note: In case you are wondering why I would raise with Q3s, the other two players had been EXTREMELY tight so this started out as a pure steal attempt.

Once the trips hit on the flop should I bet small (400 into a 1,200 pot)after his check to give a weak impression. Should I have checked?

How about the turn?

Personally I think I extracted about as many chips from him as possible, but would like to hear other thoughts on how to play this.


Stage #326380864 Tourney ID 452916 Holdem Single Tournament No Limit $100 - 2006-02-14 22:40:30 (ET)
Table: 5834277 (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 1 - SM4147 ($4460 in chips)
Seat 2 - GATORJERRYH ($5670 in chips)
Seat 3 - GOHAN66 ($3370 in chips)
SM4147 - Posts small blind $100
GATORJERRYH - Posts big blind $200
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to GATORJERRYH [Qc 3c]
GOHAN66 - Folds
SM4147 - Calls $100
GATORJERRYH - Raises $400 to $600
SM4147 - Calls $400
*** FLOP *** [3d 4h 3s]
SM4147 - Checks
GATORJERRYH - Bets $400
SM4147 - Calls $400
*** TURN *** [3d 4h 3s] [10h]
SM4147 - Checks
GATORJERRYH - Bets $600
SM4147 - Folds
GATORJERRYH - returned ($600) : not called
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GATORJERRYH - Does not show
GATORJERRYH Collects $2000 from main pot

[Phantaroth]

I wouldn't have raised pre flop, other then that,yes.

[drmcboy]

1) lead whatever you would lead with 88, or AK.
2) check
3) weak lead like you did

all are OK, sorted by my preference. Because of your tight read and the pre flop action the draw does not worry me at all. Problem is you don't know what he has - if it's a pair, betting now is good because he'll probably raise. If he has AT, you would lean to the check or weak bet to bring him in and give him a chance to bluff or catch up.

Leading 3QPS or so is my play for a couple reasons - I want to lead when I miss too, and his most likely holding to me is a weak PP. You would think with a good A or K he would raise pre flop and fold most other stuff. If he has something like 66, you need to bet before overs come and scare him off.

[GatorJH]

1) lead whatever you would lead with 88, or AK.
2) check
3) weak lead like you did

all are OK, sorted by my preference. Because of your tight read and the pre flop action the draw does not worry me at all. Problem is you don't know what he has - if it's a pair, betting now is good because he'll probably raise. If he has AT, you would lean to the check or weak bet to bring him in and give him a chance to bluff or catch up.

Leading 3QPS or so is my play for a couple reasons - I want to lead when I miss too, and his most likely holding to me is a weak PP. You would think with a good A or K he would raise pre flop and fold most other stuff. If he has something like 66, you need to bet before overs come and scare him off.

Pre-flop I put him on either a low PP or A with a weak kicker. Once he just called my bet on the flop I ruled out a low PP as I think he would have raised my bet. At that point I felt there were only a few cards that would improve his hand, but didn't want to give him a free draw to a potential flush or straight (if he is holding A5 or A2).

BTW, what is "3QPS"? Is is Three Quarter Pot Size? If so, are you saying you would have bet this on the flop? My min bet was designed to induce a raise if he felt I was weak. I don't see a 3QPS bet doing that. Keep in mind that neither of these two were very strong players so I wasn't worried about them picking up on betting patterns.

[GatorJH]

Another one to comment on - At 1.75 to 1 am I getting the right odds to make a call with this hand? Are there other factors beside pott odds that come into play here as well?

Stage #326387035 Tourney ID 452916 Holdem Single Tournament No Limit $200 - 2006-02-14 22:47:10 (ET)
Table: 5834277 (Real Money) Seat #1 is the dealer
Seat 1 - SM4147 ($4910 in chips)
Seat 2 - GATORJERRYH ($5670 in chips)
Seat 3 - GOHAN66 ($2920 in chips)
GATORJERRYH - Posts small blind $200
GOHAN66 - Posts big blind $400
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to GATORJERRYH [9c Kc]
SM4147 - Folds
GATORJERRYH - Raises $600 to $800
GOHAN66 - All-In(Raise) $2520 to $2920
GATORJERRYH - ????

[mcatdog]

Why did you minraise from the small blind?

[drmcboy]

tight players that didn't raise pre flop don't then CR the flop with overs. If you get raised, it is because he has a hand and he's raising 3QPS or 1QPS with equal frequency.

I don't know why you think your bet looks 'weak'. Why would someone with no hand bet like you did? It's unlikely he'll fold to 400 after that flop after calling a raise pre flop. Unless you're in the habit of leading weak with nothing I think you're giving off the opposite impression (I want a call).

[GatorJH]

Why did you minraise from the small blind?

How is a raise to 600 with the BB at 200 considered a minraise?

[GatorJH]

tight players that didn't raise pre flop don't then CR the flop with overs. If you get raised, it is because he has a hand and he's raising 3QPS or 1QPS with equal frequency.

I don't know why you think your bet looks 'weak'. Why would someone with no hand bet like you did? It's unlikely he'll fold to 400 after that flop after calling a raise pre flop. Unless you're in the habit of leading weak with nothing I think you're giving off the opposite impression (I want a call).

good point - thanks.

[mcatdog]

Why did you minraise from the small blind?

How is a raise to 600 with the BB at 200 considered a minraise?

Your hand history seems to say the BB is 400 and you raised to 800, but perhaps the hand history means something different than what it actually says, some of these websites have pretty awful hand histories. If you used the converter it would clear up the confusion.

[GatorJH]

[quote="mcatdog"]

Why did you minraise from the small blind?

How is a raise to 600 with the BB at 200 considered a minraise?

Your hand history seems to say the BB is 400 and you raised to 800, but perhaps the hand history means something different than what it actually says, some of these websites have pretty awful hand histories. If you used the converter it would clear up the confusion.

My bad, I was looking at the first hand, not the second. I guess that's why you shouldn't post two seperate hands in the same post.

The reason for the minraise is that I have found in the later stages of the tournament, when many players have a low M, a minrase works just as well as a 3 or 4xBB raise. Most of the time players will either fold or re-raise, but I rarely get a call. Is that a bad philosophy?

[mcatdog]

Well, if I've seen someone min-raising my big blind a lot, I'm going to think "This guy is just trying to steal my blinds for cheap," and I'm liable to shove all my chips into the pot with any 2 cards.

Why are you messing around with these shitty little raises when the big blind only has 7 BB left in his stack! Not only that, you actually have a pretty good hand. Pushing for 7 BB with K9 from the small blind is +EV by such a huge amount that I just do it, I don't fool around in these situations.

[Trikflow77]

[quote="GatorJH"]

Why did you minraise from the small blind?

How is a raise to 600 with the BB at 200 considered a minraise?

Your hand history seems to say the BB is 400 and you raised to 800, but perhaps the hand history means something different than what it actually says, some of these websites have pretty awful hand histories. If you used the converter it would clear up the confusion.

My bad, I was looking at the first hand, not the second. I guess that's why you shouldn't post two seperate hands in the same post.

The reason for the minraise is that I have found in the later stages of the tournament, when many players have a low M, a minrase works just as well as a 3 or 4xBB raise. Most of the time players will either fold or re-raise, but I rarely get a call. Is that a bad philosophy?

i dont agree. A good play is going to come over the top of that minraise all the time. I always do.

[drmcboy]

if there are antes you give BB a price to call with any non J3 level crap hand with a min raise.

Having said that, if the min raise is consistently winning pre flop you can make the argument you are letting them make the mistake of folding when they should call.

[GatorJH]

[quote="Trikflow77"]

Why did you minraise from the small blind?

How is a raise to 600 with the BB at 200 considered a minraise?

Your hand history seems to say the BB is 400 and you raised to 800, but perhaps the hand history means something different than what it actually says, some of these websites have pretty awful hand histories. If you used the converter it would clear up the confusion.

My bad, I was looking at the first hand, not the second. I guess that's why you shouldn't post two seperate hands in the same post.

The reason for the minraise is that I have found in the later stages of the tournament, when many players have a low M, a minrase works just as well as a 3 or 4xBB raise. Most of the time players will either fold or re-raise, but I rarely get a call. Is that a bad philosophy?

i dont agree. A good play is going to come over the top of that minraise all the time. I always do.

I see the error in my ways. Once again, thanks for the input.

[Scuba Chuck]

I'm responding to the first hand. How to play this hand can change based on your image. For example, if you always make a c-bet with position here, then you should make a bet. Furthermore, if you check here against a regular, he might know you have a monster (although, probably not likely with this flop). FWIW, I bet this flop. But your opponents check/call, to me at least, signifies that your opponent does not have the FD (I mean, at your buyin, and this flop, if he has the FD, he probably thinks he has 50% pot equity). So, on the turn here I check. You have position on the river, so at least you can still value bet then. Damn, let's play some poka!

Scuba

[GatorJH]

I'm responding to the first hand. How to play this hand can change based on your image. For example, if you always make a c-bet with position here, then you should make a bet. Furthermore, if you check here against a regular, he might know you have a monster (although, probably not likely with this flop). FWIW, I bet this flop. But your opponents check/call, to me at least, signifies that your opponent does not have the FD (I mean, at your buyin, and this flop, if he has the FD, he probably thinks he has 50% pot equity). So, on the turn here I check. You have position on the river, so at least you can still value bet then. Damn, let's play some poka!

Scuba

I thought about checking the turn (which is why I posted this hand to see if i got that sort of feedback), but guess I still get a tad worried about boards that have both flush and straight draws on them. I will work on opening that up in the future.

[Scuba Chuck]

I'm responding to the first hand. How to play this hand can change based on your image. For example, if you always make a c-bet with position here, then you should make a bet. Furthermore, if you check here against a regular, he might know you have a monster (although, probably not likely with this flop). FWIW, I bet this flop. But your opponents check/call, to me at least, signifies that your opponent does not have the FD (I mean, at your buyin, and this flop, if he has the FD, he probably thinks he has 50% pot equity). So, on the turn here I check. You have position on the river, so at least you can still value bet then. Damn, let's play some poka!

Scuba

I thought about checking the turn (which is why I posted this hand to see if i got that sort of feedback), but guess I still get a tad worried about boards that have both flush and straight draws on them. I will work on opening that up in the future.

I think on average, people are soooo scared of drawy boards, that they miss some of the subtle tendencies, hand reading, etc. In this case, I think you can feel pretty confident that your opponent is just peeling one off, and you are far far ahead. Another thing is to consider that this is not a full table with a bunch of limpers. The way hands play changes drastically due to that change.

Anyway, my point is, that perhaps you are worried too much about a draw making it, rather than trying to induce a bluff, gather more chips - when you have such a strong hand 3 way. I think most players are thinking too much about 'charging' players for their draws.

[GatorJH]

I think most players are thinking too much about 'charging' players for their draws.

That is the mindset I need to get into later in the tournament!!!! Worry less about "charging for the draw" and more about "how can I gather more chips".

Thanks for the input.