Deep stacks 10+1 Stars

[jdubs]

near end of second hour... villain seemed pretty tight, had a note on him trapping earlier.... i wanted to believe he had chased the flush and caught it, but wasnt sure, he didnt seem one to chase pots like that...


PokerStars Game #3860152114: Tournament #18846690, Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2006/02/04 - 13:51:45 (ET)
Table '18846690 5' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: CHIPPER1021 (3895 in chips)
Seat 2: Bank Force (3375 in chips)
Seat 3: BigGuyAces (3175 in chips)
Seat 4: johncoltrane (3715 in chips)
Seat 5: HOLLY 77 (4250 in chips)
Seat 6: tomdgg79 (7505 in chips)
Seat 7: LetsGoCanes (5685 in chips)
Seat 8: ~US&Co~ (7705 in chips)
Seat 9: ECSDcopper (20045 in chips)
johncoltrane: posts small blind 50
HOLLY 77: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to johncoltrane [2s Kh]
tomdgg79: calls 100
LetsGoCanes: folds
~US&Co~: folds
ECSDcopper: folds
CHIPPER1021: calls 100
Bank Force: folds
BigGuyAces: calls 100
johncoltrane: calls 50
HOLLY 77: checks
*** FLOP *** [2c Ks 3c]
johncoltrane: bets 200
HOLLY 77: folds
tomdgg79: folds
CHIPPER1021: calls 200
BigGuyAces: folds
*** TURN *** [2c Ks 3c] [7s]
johncoltrane: bets 700
CHIPPER1021: calls 700
*** RIVER *** [2c Ks 3c 7s] [4c]
johncoltrane ?

[JeffreyGB]

Trapping (assuming it was actually that and not a weak/stupid slowplay) implies some level of intelligence. Calling to the river on a flush draw does not (though calling the flop bet on a flush draw is probably correct given the small bet).

After the turn, I'm not scared of the flush draw. As to whether there's something else to be scared of, I'd need to see more details as to how/what he trapped with previously. I'd say either you're way ahead here, or he has a set. I'm ok with either a check/call or a bet/call here, depending on how you feel about the read on him.

[jdubs]

thanks jeffrey,
here's what happened next:

PokerStars Game #3860152114: Tournament #18846690, Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2006/02/04 - 13:51:45 (ET)
Table '18846690 5' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: CHIPPER1021 (3895 in chips)
Seat 2: Bank Force (3375 in chips)
Seat 3: BigGuyAces (3175 in chips)
Seat 4: johncoltrane (3715 in chips)
Seat 5: HOLLY 77 (4250 in chips)
Seat 6: tomdgg79 (7505 in chips)
Seat 7: LetsGoCanes (5685 in chips)
Seat 8: ~US&Co~ (7705 in chips)
Seat 9: ECSDcopper (20045 in chips)
johncoltrane: posts small blind 50
HOLLY 77: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to johncoltrane [2s Kh]
tomdgg79: calls 100
LetsGoCanes: folds
~US&Co~: folds
ECSDcopper: folds
CHIPPER1021: calls 100
Bank Force: folds
BigGuyAces: calls 100
johncoltrane: calls 50
HOLLY 77: checks
*** FLOP *** [2c Ks 3c]
johncoltrane: bets 200
HOLLY 77: folds
tomdgg79: folds
CHIPPER1021: calls 200
BigGuyAces: folds
*** TURN *** [2c Ks 3c] [7s]
johncoltrane: bets 700
CHIPPER1021: calls 700
*** RIVER *** [2c Ks 3c 7s] [4c]
johncoltrane: bets 1000
CHIPPER1021: raises 1000 to 2000
johncoltrane ??


I didnt want to believe he had chased the flush, but this made me pause.. i thought maybe 77 , 33 .. in any case it alarmed me..

[JeffreyGB]

thanks jeffrey,
here's what happened next:
...
i thought maybe 77 , 33 .. in any case it alarmed me..

I think these are possible, and they alarm me a little as well, but they're also misplayed if that's the case...waiting until the flush hits and then betting? Eww. Anyway, I'm sticking by what I thought before:

I'm ok with either a check/call or a bet/call here, depending on how you feel about the read on him.

[azureXsmurF]

If I were the opponent I would've put you off a flush, so I don't think him waiting for the flush to hit would've necessarily been a mistake being heads up. I'd say set.

[Sprayed]

I think #1 your call from the sb is a little weak. Even though you have a K you have a very weak kicker. You flopped two pair on a flush draw board so bet the pot and protect it. He's calling you down with something strong so I would kill the turn with a big bet. If he calls then check/call river. The other problem with your two pair is that the board could have paired and then your 2's would have been counterfeited.

[jdubs]

thanks jeffrey,
here's what happened next:
...
i thought maybe 77 , 33 .. in any case it alarmed me..

I think these are possible, and they alarm me a little as well, but they're also misplayed if that's the case...waiting until the flush hits and then betting? Eww. Anyway, I'm sticking by what I thought before:

I'm ok with either a check/call or a bet/call here, depending on how you feel about the read on him.

do you make the river call here Jeffrey?

[jdubs]

I think #1 your call from the sb is a little weak. Even though you have a K you have a very weak kicker. You flopped two pair on a flush draw board so bet the pot and protect it. He's calling you down with something strong so I would kill the turn with a big bet. If he calls then check/call river. The other problem with your two pair is that the board could have paired and then your 2's would have been counterfeited.

9 to 1 on the call from SB... those odds just looked too good. betting the flop bigger is probably right though, thats a good point- I was trying to slow play it I guess, which is a mistake here I think. would you maker the river call here on his raise?

[drmcboy]

check call river. As played... you need to already know what you're doing when you bet. Some ops you're just going to pay off the flush. Some you could lead and know if they come over the top you are beat. If you don't know one way or they other, for gods sake check. It's unlikely he has a K good enough to pay you off with two straight smooth calls on that board. But he may mistakenly value bet hands you beat, or bluff. Your lead takes the bluff away and puts you in a bad spot if he raises.

Slow playing two pair, especially with all those draws out, is pretty much always a mistake.

[chardrian]

Slow playing two pair, especially with all those draws out, is pretty much always a mistake.

You way underbet the flop. Turn was better. River = check call.

[midas06]

You way underbet the flop.

[JeffreyGB]

Sorry I went on hiatus and didn't answer your question jdubs. Yes, I'm calling the river here, but as I said (and as others have said since), I know that I'm doing that when I make my bet there. If you're unsure, then check/call is definitely a better line. IMO your river bet commits you.

Ultimately, here's the question: why did you bet the river? Were you betting for value? If so, I call the raise, because as I said before, I'm not incredibly scared of the flush. Were you betting to get him to fold? Not a good play because he's probably not going away after the previous calls.

So to summarize:
- Bigger bet on the flop (so that a flush draw doesn't call as often and is making a mistake when he does)
- Larger pot -> bigger bet on turn
- If you're feeling unsure in a spot like this, check/call. Bet/call is only an option if you're positive that you're going to call (that is, you're confident in your hand).

P.S. Unlike sprayed, I don't hate your preflop complete. As you said, 9-1 is a nice price; it's almost enough that you can play this for two-pair+ on pot odds alone!

P.P.S. Part of what makes the slowplay a mistake in my book is the fact that you were 4 handed. Small bets into multiway pots are best made with near nut hands or in position against weakness.

[Sprayed]

P.S. Unlike sprayed, I don't hate your preflop complete. As you said, 9-1 is a nice price; it's almost enough that you can play this for two-pair+ on pot odds alone!

Don't get me wrong, it's great odds. I'm just a little tight from the blinds. If it was more of a connected hand, np.