$5,50; KK vs QQ9 flush draw flop

[Halv]

No specific reads. Table was insane in the first 10 hands, but seems to have tightened up significantly recently.

***** Pacific Hand History for Game 179729418 *****
$15/$30 Blinds No Limit Hold'em - *** 02 16 21:57:15 2006
Tournament #8495290 $5 + $0.5 - Table #1 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: yarrum7 ( $1040 )
Seat 3: mayo1019 ( $2790 )
Seat 4: tgun14 ( $2190 )
Seat 5: jcpsn ( $435 )
Seat 7: sweaty25 ( $750 )
Seat 8: HalvSame ( $795 )
yarrum7 posts small blind [$15].
mayo1019 posts big blind [$30].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HalvSame [ Kc Kd ]
tgun14 calls [$30].
jcpsn calls [$30].
sweaty25 folds.
HalvSame raises [$150].
yarrum7 folds.
mayo1019 folds.
tgun14 calls [$120].
jcpsn calls [$120].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qs, 9s, Qc ]
tgun14 checks.
jcpsn checks.
HalvSame??

[taipan168]

To bet the pot here would mean committing more than half your stack, so I would just push but kiss your chips goodbye as they leave.

The other option would be to bet 250, but that leaves you just 300 behind, and if you're raised on the flop you're gonna call, so just push IMO.

[thnwkd]

No specific reads. Table was insane in the first 10 hands, but seems to have tightened up significantly recently.

I think you have to apply yourself here. one guy in the pot is a big stack and the other a short stack, how did that happen? they had to have showed down a hand. how did they play that hand? did they limp/raise pf? in ten hands on a table that you describe as insane you should have some sort of read.

any how if one of these limpers were in on this insane behavior i raise more pf if not push AI. but i am going broke here on the flop i guess.

aww in baby.

[Halv]

No specific reads.

I think you have to apply yourself here

Very true. I need to pay more attention. Or, I need to stop playing poker while doing something else. Including posting on FTR while in a tournament (I'm doing this right now for f***s sake ). I already knew that, but as of after this post I'm turning it into my nr 1 priority pokerwise.

But with no reads, what's your line?

[taipan168]

With no reads, I play it the same - push the flop. Unless I had a rock-solid read that either opp always checked the nuts I can't see myself check/folding here.

[Halv]

** Dealing Flop ** [ Qs, 9s, Qc ]
tgun14 checks.
jcpsn checks.
HalvSame bets [$320].
tgun14 raises [$640].
jcpsn folds.
HalvSame calls [$320].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4h ]
tgun14 checks.
HalvSame checks.
** Dealing River ** [ 6c ]
tgun14 checks.
HalvSame checks.
** Summary **
tgun14 shows [ 9d Ac ].
HalvSame shows [ Kc Kd ].
HalvSame collected [$1775].

What if villain bet out, say, 1/2-pot?

[bluey]

Am I missing something or did you not put all your chips in the middle?

[swiggidy]

Push that flop. The only two hands you should be worried about are QQ and QA. If so: nh, gg.

Why bet half? If you're calling any bet then you're loosing to any hand that beats you. If you bet half your stack you loose fold equity,( flush draw)?

[Scuba Chuck]

That is one fucking shitty flop. If you are thinking about folding at all somewhere here on the flop (which isn't a good idea on average), I think you should check here.

Anyway, the only way jcpsn puts more chips in here after checking should be if he has 99 in the hole. Otherwise, he should be pushing his Q or FD here on the flop. Since that's the only likely hand we're worried about from him, we should not worry about him at all (I think this is true at the higher levels, I have no idea about how they play at the $5.50s, as I've never played one). Essentially, I'm saying you should think about this hand like it's headsup. Due to that factor, I think it's fairly likely your best line on the flop here is about ~ t200. This should increase the number of potential hands that play back at you from tgun14 to include hands like 88/TT/JJ and perhaps the FD (which is probably a given since this is a $5.50).

[Halv]

I think it's fairly likely your best line on the flop here is about ~ t200. This should increase the number of potential hands that play back at you from tgun14 to include hands like 88/TT/JJ and perhaps the FD (which is probably a given since this is a $5.50).

Yeah, I think I agree. What I was looking for with my t320 bet was to build up the pot a bit before pushing the turn/calling his AI raise. I guess t320 in general is too much to keep worse hands in.

My basic thinking in situations like these, where I know I will get all my chips in the middle at some point of the hand against one opp, is to drop fold equity because I don't have any against the hands I'm afraid of. Thus I want them to put in as much chips as possible before the cards are turned over. Is this wrong?

[Scuba Chuck]

I think it's fairly likely your best line on the flop here is about ~ t200. This should increase the number of potential hands that play back at you from tgun14 to include hands like 88/TT/JJ and perhaps the FD (which is probably a given since this is a $5.50).

Yeah, I think I agree. What I was looking for with my t320 bet was to build up the pot a bit before pushing the turn/calling his AI raise. I guess t320 in general is too much to keep worse hands in.

My basic thinking in situations like these, where I know I will get all my chips in the middle at some point of the hand against one opp, is to drop fold equity because I don't have any against the hands I'm afraid of. Thus I want them to put in as much chips as possible before the cards are turned over. Is this wrong?

I'm pretty sure you're saying the following:

What you want is that your opponent thinks you might fold some % of the time if they push over your bet.

[Halv]

I'm pretty sure you're saying the following:

What you want is that your opponent thinks you might fold some % of the time if they push over your bet.

Yeah, that's probably how it would be if I had the ability to express myself with one sentence.

And me wanting them to think that is a good thing, right?

[swiggidy]

I think it's fairly likely your best line on the flop here is about ~ t200. This should increase the number of potential hands that play back at you from tgun14 to include hands like 88/TT/JJ and perhaps the FD (which is probably a given since this is a $5.50).

I like this idea, but I don't think it works at $5.50.

I think the flush draw calls t200 and folds if you push the turn, so you're loosing chips when they miss their draw. Are you going to fold if the 3rd suit comes on the turn? No, so they get implied odds (if they're that smart). Way to0 many people call a 1/2 pot bet with a flush draw at $5.50. I think 88/TT/JJ (maybe even A9) could put you on AK and call a push. Let them make a horrible decision instead of just a bad decision.