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Pocket Aces (hand history review)

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  1. #1

    Default Pocket Aces (hand history review)

    Hi,

    I'd appreciate if someone could comment this slowplay by me with pocket aces.
    I removed the end result as instructed.

    Good play or bad play?
    Any suggestions or comments?

    50/100 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL)
    Table 66898 (Real Money) -- Seat 3 is the button
    Total number of players : 8

    Seat 1: jtightlips (1460)
    Seat 2: kingkop05 (1470)
    Seat 3: stacheco (695)
    Seat 4: CocoLeMonkey (525)
    Seat 5: bulldoge (1715)
    Seat 7: pokeras (835)
    Seat 8: Muncey11 (455)
    Seat 10: Rising_Fast (845)

    CocoLeMonkey posts small blind (25)
    bulldoge posts big blind (50)

    ** Dealing down cards **

    Dealt to pokeras [ :As:, :Ah: ]

    pokeras calls (50)
    Muncey11 folds.
    Rising_Fast folds.
    jtightlips folds.
    kingkop05 calls (50)
    stacheco folds.
    CocoLeMonkey folds.
    bulldoge checks.

    ** Dealing Flop ** : [ , :Jd:, ]

    bulldoge checks.
    pokeras checks.
    kingkop05 bets (50)
    bulldoge folds.
    pokeras calls (50)

    ** Dealing Turn ** : [ :Kc: ]

    pokeras checks.
    kingkop05 bets (100)
    pokeras calls (100)

    ** Dealing River ** : [ ]

    pokeras bets (70)
    kingkop05 raises (250) to 250
    pokeras raises (360) to 430
    kingkop05 raises (850) to 1100
    pokeras calls (205)
    pokeras is all-In.

    Creating Main Pot with $1745 with pokeras
  2. #2
    I will start the onslaught

    NEVER EVER EVER slow play Pocket A's with 7 people left to act behind you. Pocket A's are a TERRIBLE hand against more than 1-2 players because the odds that someone will flop a better hand increase dramatically.

    You ABSOLUTELY MUST raise here to get rid of all junk hands.

    It is a much better scenarion to take the blinds when no one plays against your raise than slow play this like you did and end up out of the tournament because you let one of the blinds in with a hand like Q10, or even something worse like 95o.

    Once again - NEVER EVER EVER slow play pocket A's in early position (or even late position would have to be a RARE case).
    Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
  3. #3
    Who slow plays aces?
    Raise it 4 times the blinds and depending on the number of callers bet into them and watch the board. Any straights or flush possibilities be careful. What you meant to say was how can I play aces and maximize my winnings of the hand. With 835 in chips, throw down a raise of 400 and then some continuation bets. Or you could stop and go , depending on the texture of the flop. ( Raise then all in on the flop " stop and go")
  4. #4
    I bet your aces got cracked by some crap like KJ or J9 for two pair.
    You were probably pissed off, but really it was your fault for slow playing aces. If you won this hand I would be very surprised.
    He re-raised your re-raise on the river...no one does that unless they at LEAST 2 pair.
  5. #5
    Like everyone else said dont slow play them, especially preflop. I'm guessing villian has KJ
    BR: $.1k
    Goal 2: July 1 $10k

    IIbeatsUU: lol u raised with that?

    you mini raised, therefore you desereve whatever you get....

  6. #6
    Not wanting to pile on I'd just like to say it's refreshing that a 1st time poster actually read the faq, used the converter and removed the results. Nice work...


    For further insight into why this is probably not what you want to do, I'd suggest reading DavSimon's guide above.

    Stick with it and In about a month's time you'll look back at this hand and slap yourself.

    GL...
    So you click their picture and then you get their money?
  7. #7
    Thanks for the comments

    As for the villain, he had K4, so it's the turn card cracked my aces Hope it's ok to reveal it now seeing that the comments have stopped flowing in, though I think the vast majority asking for advice do so only because they lost the pot

    Anyway, I agree that it was very risky to slowplay the way I did pre-flop by just calling having in mind that I also was the first to act and that that might have invited 7 more players in the pot. But I'm not one that necessarily goes all the way even with pocket aces, so by slowplaying I take the chance that I'll maybe have to fold the aces depending on the situation...

    My rationale behind that approach was that I had been folding pre-flop 10 or more hands before I got AA. Any sudden betting by me would surely be noted, especially since I was the first to act out of 8 players and I wasn't even coming close to becoming short-stacked...

    So in an attempt to maximize the profit of the first decent hand I got in a long time, which also happened to the best possible pre-flop hand, I chose a risky approach in order to mame a couple of players into the pot willing to bet on whatever they had pre- and post-flop. The play was pretty conservative at that stage of the tournament, which I also had to consider when making my move, so while just calling was risky it made some sense to me...

    However, I agree that I probably should have made at least a minimal bet to eliminate the possibility of more than a few entering the pot. Still though, it turned out 'well', or so it seemed, because only two more players entered the pot and the flop any immediate cause for concern apart from the spade flush draw...

    The villain ( ) made a minimal bet on the flop, which made the third guy fold. I was pretty sure that he at that point at most had some high card combo (Ax or similair), a single pair or was aiming for the flush draw. When he bet 2x the blind on the turn, when the K appeared, I thought that maybe he was either simply trying to back up his previous betting on the flop or less likely that he had paired the king...

    Whatever the case was, I simply called not to create the impression that I might have paired the King myself and also to make sure the river card wasn't a spade. Then on the river, I felt pretty confident that I had the best hand. His betting strategy on the flop and turn didn't set off any alarm bells in my head, so I thought I'd make a small river bet that would look like I was trying to steal the pot with probably nothing. This is where things turned ugly, though. He raised my bet to 5x the blind, I thought 'nice work, he thinks I'm bluffing'. So, I re-raise it even more hoping he'll call. It turned out he went all-in...

    At this point when I had already invested more than half of my chip stack in the pot it was difficult to consider folding, but while him going all-in like that was a cause for concern I still felt like I should have the winning hand which it turned out I did not. So, now that I've revealed my complete thoughts and strategy for this betting round, and disregarding the issue of the questionable pre-flop call, do you think I should have acted differently on the flop, turn or river?

    Sorry for the lengthy post btw :P
  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by kingnat
    Not wanting to pile on I'd just like to say it's refreshing that a 1st time poster actually read the faq, used the converter and removed the results. Nice work...
    I might be a 1st time poster but as the join date reveals I have been lurking around these forums for some time

    Quote Originally Posted by kingnat
    For further insight into why this is probably not what you want to do, I'd suggest reading DavSimon's guide above.

    Stick with it and In about a month's time you'll look back at this hand and slap yourself.

    GL...
    I'll check it out, it seems to go through mostly basic stuff but I might learn something new from it
  9. #9
    STIdrivr's Avatar
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    The reason you were so lost in this hand and had no idea what he had is because you never raised. For 1 if you raised the flop he would of folded and you know your hand is best,2. if you raise on the turn after he raises you and he re-raises you can start to think your hand is no good. Also if he was on a flush draw you were letting him draw at it for as cheap as he could have.
  10. #10
    Renton's Avatar
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    You shouldn't never slowplay aces. It can be a powerful technique if used in the perfect situation and in extreme moderation. That situation being, at a super aggressive table. If it seems like someone or some people raise EVERY hand preflop, then slowplaying aces is a good move for variety.

    However if you limp and that extremely ugly situation happens where no one raises, you hafta play your aces like any other medium pair. No set, no bet, or bet if there is a very oatmeal uncoordinated flop.

    However, don't ever slowplay aces because you are afraid you'll chase everyone away. The sad truth is if you have aces and no one else has a damn thing, you aren't gonna make money in the hand. This means if you raise with aces (and you almost always should) and no one calls, you didn't make a bad play. You were just unlucky to have such a great hand when no one else has jack.
  11. #11
    Staresy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GatorJH
    NEVER EVER EVER slow play Pocket A's with 7 people left to act behind you.
    well, lets just qualify that. I might (and I repeat might) limp AA UTG if I was as sure as I could be that someone behind me would raise. But, I would have to know that there is some maniac or somebody who position raises into perceived weakness left to act. You would need a pretty solid read that that was going to happen, which is why I want to make it clear that I would need to be pretty sure I was going to get raised.

    However, on this hand, whilst I agree with the general consensus that slow-playing here was a mistake (and generally tends to be at low buy-in SnGs), I think you could have fired into villian's weak lead on the flop. I bump it to 200-250 and see how much he is willing to play on.

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  12. #12
    well, lets just qualify that. I might (and I repeat might) limp AA UTG if I was as sure as I could be that someone behind me would raise.
    I would agree with that, however at this stage in his playing (heck, mine too probably) I think he is better off with the "never ever" strategy. Slow playing A's from early position not only requires a good sense of the table and when someone behind you may raise the pot, but also a very good ability to play them post flop when it doesn't get raised and 2 or more others are in the pot.
    Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
  13. #13
    cardsman1992's Avatar
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    Take control of the hand at some point, PLEASE!!!!!

    Raise to at least 200 preflop (more if you think that is what it will take to isolate to one or two players). Do not assume that people are paying that much attention to your folding. I have folded every hand for two orbits (that includes my raised blinds) and still gotten at least one caller with a preflop raise.

    With that flop, you need to know where you stand. The only hands you are worried about are JJ, J9, 99, and 44. J4 and 94 shouldn't be playing, but you don't know that since you didn't raise them out of the pot preflop. So you have to raise (I would say to pot sized bet) to chase out the draws and make JT or some other crap less attractive. If he calls, you can proceed carefully on the turn because then you can think two pair or set, but likely you chase him out with your reraise.

    This is MUCH more preferable than slowplaying As. If you take down the blinds, that is better than a crappy two pair beating you!!
  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by pokeras
    Thanks for the comments

    As for the villain, he had K4, so it's the turn card cracked my aces Hope it's ok to reveal it now seeing that the comments have stopped flowing in, though I think the vast majority asking for advice do so only because they lost the pot

    Anyway, I agree that it was very risky to slowplay the way I did pre-flop by just calling having in mind that I also was the first to act and that that might have invited 7 more players in the pot. But I'm not one that necessarily goes all the way even with pocket aces, so by slowplaying I take the chance that I'll maybe have to fold the aces depending on the situation...

    My rationale behind that approach was that I had been folding pre-flop 10 or more hands before I got AA. Any sudden betting by me would surely be noted, especially since I was the first to act out of 8 players and I wasn't even coming close to becoming short-stacked...

    So in an attempt to maximize the profit of the first decent hand I got in a long time, which also happened to the best possible pre-flop hand, I chose a risky approach in order to mame a couple of players into the pot willing to bet on whatever they had pre- and post-flop. The play was pretty conservative at that stage of the tournament, which I also had to consider when making my move, so while just calling was risky it made some sense to me...

    However, I agree that I probably should have made at least a minimal bet to eliminate the possibility of more than a few entering the pot. Still though, it turned out 'well', or so it seemed, because only two more players entered the pot and the flop any immediate cause for concern apart from the spade flush draw...

    The villain ( ) made a minimal bet on the flop, which made the third guy fold. I was pretty sure that he at that point at most had some high card combo (Ax or similair), a single pair or was aiming for the flush draw. When he bet 2x the blind on the turn, when the K appeared, I thought that maybe he was either simply trying to back up his previous betting on the flop or less likely that he had paired the king...

    Whatever the case was, I simply called not to create the impression that I might have paired the King myself and also to make sure the river card wasn't a spade. Then on the river, I felt pretty confident that I had the best hand. His betting strategy on the flop and turn didn't set off any alarm bells in my head, so I thought I'd make a small river bet that would look like I was trying to steal the pot with probably nothing. This is where things turned ugly, though. He raised my bet to 5x the blind, I thought 'nice work, he thinks I'm bluffing'. So, I re-raise it even more hoping he'll call. It turned out he went all-in...

    At this point when I had already invested more than half of my chip stack in the pot it was difficult to consider folding, but while him going all-in like that was a cause for concern I still felt like I should have the winning hand which it turned out I did not. So, now that I've revealed my complete thoughts and strategy for this betting round, and disregarding the issue of the questionable pre-flop call, do you think I should have acted differently on the flop, turn or river?

    Sorry for the lengthy post btw :P
    There's just so much wrong with this post. Your reasoning is really off. perhaps some posters can pick this apart and show whats wrong and why....
    Success is how high you bounce after hitting bottom.


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  15. #15
    The biggest problem with slowplaying aces is generally the problem with slowplaying TPTK; you only have a pair, and anyone who hits the flop always has at least 5 outs to beat you. Also, you have not represented strength, so it will be much more difficult to elicit folds, and you will often be raised and re-raised with slightly worse hands, situations which will generally turn into folds.

    I recommend raising 2-3xbb here preflop to invite callers with medium-strong pocket pairs or 2 high cards, and to encourage raisers with strong hands that you have dominated, and also to make the blinds pay a bit to see the flop. The larger your raise, the worse odds you give to hands that must "draw out" on you on the flop, and the more money you gain per raise; however, you also drive out more mediocre hands. For instance, pushing all-in in this circumstance would likely net you the blinds, especially considering this is a tight table.

    Alex's Key Points for playing Aces and Kings in early position.
    1) you make a very large percentage of your opponents calls and raises preflop. You should do your best to encourage callers, and raisers, so raising a small amount is likely best, however a large amount with a few callers is also a strong play. You also want to build a reasonable pot and deny them good odds to outflop you with suited connectors like JTs and small pocket pairs. You also want to commit people to a pot so they will think twice about folding after the flop when you are still very likely to be a favorite. And finally, you want to discourage large numbers of limpers for cheap, as they will build a strong drawing pot, and it will be difficult to gauge your situation.

    2) If you are going to limp them in early position, your intention is to check-raise a very aggressive player, or check-call a very tight player and try to stack him after the flop, as these are players you almost always will have dominated. The table limping around is the worst that can happen, so if your table has alot of guys that like to limp early you should not limp. Second worst is the table folding around and you get 1 caller who would have called up to 4xbb, and the blinds come along for cheap.

    3) On the flop, your intention should either be to take down the pot you have created preflop, or elicit a call from someone with a worse hand. You are drawing to two outs if you are already beaten, and each card that appears reduces the chance of you winning the hand. 2 face cards on board, any draws that appear to complete (such as 3-to-a-straight or flush) blatantly devalue your hand and as a result cost you chips.

    4) With a raggy board, Aces enjoy taking bets, and folds, but are not much for raises or flat calls, because they bring more cards and often indicate strength that may have you beaten or has outs to improve. I feel the best strategy here is to check-raise aggressive players out of the pot, or bet strong into weak players, at least 3/4 of the pot, to get them to fold their draws. You are offering a mistake to the aggressive player who bets and folds to a raise, and exploiting the weak player's unprofitable call preflop.

    5) On a board containing a strong draw, you should almost always raise very strong - generally the full amount of the pot. I cannot emphasize this next part enough - any raises you make over a bet must be a significant amount of your stack, enough to pot-commit you and your opponent, so that they cannot call or raise based on implied odds. If this means betting 3 or 4 times the size of the pot in order to commit 35% of your stack or more, then do it. I emphasize this for three reasons:

    a) It indicates a very strong made hand that will not be offering drawing odds, thus it is a conservative play that will ensure you make a good profit off of a fold.
    b) Because of (a), your opponents may read that strong means weak, and the pot is now huge and very much worth attempting to steal.
    c) If you plan on getting into a raising war with a small bet or raise, the odds that you will be beaten with all your chips in the middle increase dramatically with each raise. So unless you have a great read on your opponent that says you have him beaten over 90% of the time regardless of his postflop play, you're just commiting less of your chips to the profitable situations here and more of your chips to the unprofitable ones.

    6) On a board containing high cards and no strong draws (particularly a board like KT3 rainbow or JT6 rainbow), you should bet out. This is the toughest situation to play as many hands that have you beaten fit this flop and can call your preflop raise. Do not checkraise this board as you are likely to get reraised. Bet out and call a raise. Again, you are looking to minimize your chip loss if you are beaten.

    7) On a board with strong draws and high cards available, and especially with 2 or more other players involved, check with the intention of raising and be prepared to fold into heavy action. Repeat on the turn and river. Additional cards coming hurt you here most of all as draws can complete, but there is very little that betting out will do to assuage this. If a blank comes on the turn still do not fire; again, you may be facing a made hand or a drawing hand, and you want to give weaker made hands and drawing hands the option to incorrectly bet, while giving stronger made hands the opportunity to represent themselves with a raise before the action comes to you. On the river if another blank comes you are checking with the intention of calling a bet to see a showdown. Since you really cannot call or raise a raise, giving your opponent the option to bet out makes you more chips in the long run. In this situation I recommend a pot-sized reraise, usually 2.5-3x their original bet.

    8) Paired boards are very dangerous - you are sometimes drawing to 2 outs, and your hand looks very strong. Be very wary of flops KKx-99x (I will check/fold on a board of KK3, but check-raise on a board of KKQ; do you see why?). Be very aggressive on flops of 88x or less, because people will bet these flops with almost anything, from 99-KK and AK-AT, KQ, and wacky straight-flush-backdoor-overcards draw combinations. In all situations you should generally fold in heavy action.




    That's all I got for now. Would appreciate a review on this from some of the better players; I was racking my brain.
    Operation Learn to Read
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  16. #16
    I really don't advocate limp-raising AA/KK, or anything for that matter. Open limping from EP is usually a terrible play also.
  17. #17
    Renton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by midas06
    Open limping from EP is usually a terrible play also.
    I'll do it with small pairs all day long. It seems to have paid off for me.
  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Renton
    Quote Originally Posted by midas06
    Open limping from EP is usually a terrible play also.
    I'll do it with small pairs all day long. It seems to have paid off for me.
    ill open anything i want to play in mtts, in sngs im more willing to limp it.

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