could have waited a bit longer?

[dan]

$2.75 turbo on JSP...i hadnt played a hand except for checking in the bb...then i get this hand which i know is pretty shit, buti feel as if i have to make i move soon, (do i really need to?)...umm there were only 18 entrants and we are down to 11 at this point, top 3 pay...

Game # 96911069: Texas Holdem No Limit (25/50) 02/20/2006 01:44:59
Table "T954022-2" (Tournament Table) Seat 5 is the button

Seat 1: whattaboutbob (4170 tournament chips)
Seat 2: danj001 (1415 tournament chips)
Seat 5: mexi_cano (3950 tournament chips) [button]
Seat 6: wideglidebiker (1380 tournament chips)
Seat 7: biggyz (1435 tournament chips)
wideglidebiker: posts small blind 25 tournament chips
biggyz: posts big blind 50 tournament chips

>>> HOLE CARDS <<<
Dealt to danj001 [Qd Ts]
whattaboutbob: calls 50 tournament chips
danj001: raises 150 tournament chips to 200 tournament chips
mexi_cano: folds
wideglidebiker: calls 175 tournament chips
biggyz: folds
whattaboutbob: calls 150 tournament chips

>>> FLOP <<< [Td Tc Ks]
wideglidebiker: bets 50 tournament chips
whattaboutbob: folds
danj001: calls 50 tournament chips

>>> TURN <<< [Td Tc Ks] [6s]
wideglidebiker: bets 50 tournament chips
danj001: raises 150 tournament chips to 200 tournament chips
wideglidebiker: calls 150 tournament chips

>>> RIVER <<< [Td Tc Ks 6s] [Js]
wideglidebiker: bets 50 tournament chips
danj001: raises 915 tournament chips to 965 tournament chips and is all-in - dumb?
wideglidebiker: calls 880 tournament chips and is all-in
danj001: uncalled bet (35 tournament chips) returned

>>> SHOWDOWN <<<
wideglidebiker: shows [Jh Jc] (a full house, Jacks full of Tens)
danj001: shows [Qd Ts] (three of a kind, Tens)
wideglidebiker: collects 3010 tournament chips from the pot
danj001: says "danj001: ugh."

[aislephive]

I would not raise this hand in the early of a position, and I would raise the flop, bet the turn, and push the river.

[drmcboy]

fold pre flop. Too soon to worry about making a move, esp over UTG limper.

bet your hand once you're there.

[Sprayed]

Agree with drmcboy.

[JeffreyGB]

I've you're going to make a move, look to have cards or position in almost all cases. Preferrably you do it facing minimal resistance as well. I can think of very few circumstances to justify playing QT here.

Postflop in this situation, I probably play each street a tad faster than you did. I don't mind the river push too much...the flush doesn't really scare me.

[chardrian]

I concur with the above.

[johnny_fish]

2.75$ Turbo, 5 handed, so limp in and go nuts with this flop.

[JeffreyGB]

For some reason I totally ignored the fact that this is 5 handed. I'm fine with how it was played, given that.

I'd still like to play things a bit faster postflop though. And I find the J a bit more scarey for the str it brings than for the fl...if he thinks his A is good, he might play the flop and turn this way with AQ (though it's a bizarre limp preflop, it's no more of one than what he actually had).

[mcatdog]

Man, I thought I was weak-tight, you guys are saying fold preflop? QT is a fine hand 5-handed and the OP played preflop perfectly fine in my opinion. If UTG is a loose passive player, I'm raising to 200 and looking to take down the pot on the flop with a continuation bet, whether I hit the flop or not. If UTG is a tight player who I haven't seen limping before, I'm going to be more careful.

Postflop, stop watching the WSOP and don't slowplay every time you flop a big hand. In a shorthanded game, you don't win by calling and/or making wimpy little bets, you win by making big bets with a large number of hands until they get sick of you running them over, and hopefully the time they decide to play back at you, you happen to have a monster hand like trip tens.

If someone makes a scared little bet on the flop like this guy did, I'd be popping it up to 300 with a whole lot of hands: any ten, any king, QJ, and if I thought he'd fold, I'd raise him even if I had absolutely nothing.

[Renton]

you have an M of almost 20

you're still in great shape, no need to push marginal hands.

[mcatdog]

you have an M of almost 20

you're still in great shape, no need to push marginal hands.

I think this is misleading because

(1) It's a 5-handed game so the blinds will be hitting him twice as often.
(2) It's a turbo so the blinds will be doubling very soon.
(3) It's easier to get chips now than it will be when it consolidates down to the final table.

M is supposed to be a measure of the number of hands you have before you'll get blinded out. At a full table you can afford to wait until your M gets pretty low before you're forced to start making moves, but at a shorthanded table you're under more pressure even with a higher M, and even more so in a turbo.

That being said, OP isn't really giving up anything by folding here, but he has a below average stack and this looks like a perfectly good opportunity to accumulate some chips, so I'd be taking advantage of it.

[drmcboy]

How much fold equity do you really think you have against UTG limper? Basically what you're saying is you are commiting to c-betting here, so almost half your stack is going in, thereby putting you in push fold mode. Meh. Plus if the flop comes, say, KTrag and opp leads into you, what now? What if you get check raised?

you state you would only make this play against a loose passive, but you think it's a good play against an unknown opp?

limping is fine, raising just seems like a headache to me.

[chardrian]

If we are talking simply about the cards TQ os is still a pretty crappy hand even if we are just 5 handed.

With an UTG limper, I don't mind the raise to try and take it down preflop (I wouldn't mind this with 27 os either). But with the smallblind and the UTG limper both calling, you now have to be very VERY careful on almost any flop.

In this case, you got an ideal flop and just played it way too weak. I don't even mind the slowplay on the flop, but the continued slowplay on the turn was bad. You have to juice the pot at some point to get monster pay off, and if you aren't going to do it at the flop, you gotta do it at the turn. The pot was at 800 by the time he bet the turn, I would have bet at least 400 there and probably would have bet 600 knowing that I am going to push any river card.

AQ scares me a lot more than anything else on that river, but I would have pushed as well.

[mcatdog]

How much fold equity do you really think you have against UTG limper? Basically what you're saying is you are commiting to c-betting here, so almost half your stack is going in, thereby putting you in push fold mode. Meh.

So what? It's a +EV play, I don't avoid making +EV plays just because I'll be in bad shape if they don't work. And I'm only committed to c-betting, if I get heads-up against the limper. If everyone and their brother comes in and I miss the flop, I'm giving up.

Plus if the flop comes, say, KTrag and opp leads into you, what now? What if you get check raised?

If he leads into me I'm raising or folding depending on reads, and on the size of his bet. If I get check-raised I'm folding unless he's a tricky player (not likely since this is a 2.75 turbo). At higher limits people will check-raise you as a bluff, at micro-stakes in my experience, it usually means they have the nuts.

you state you would only make this play against a loose passive, but you think it's a good play against an unknown opp?

Well, if I've been playing at the same table as him for the entire tournament, I would know whether he's loose passive. Yeah, I'm a little hesitant to make this play against an unknown opponent, for example if I just got moved to a new table I like to play tight for an orbit to get a feel for the table.

limping is fine, raising just seems like a headache to me.

The problem with limping is that we'll most likely have multiple players seeing the flop, and in that case a continuation bet is not such a good idea, as chardrian pointed out. In a multiway pot I usually don't make a continuation bet unless I have something. I'm raising because I want to isolate, and get heads-up against a bad player, with position on him. Most of the time I'll take the pot down on the flop, and even if he calls, my hand has some nice top pair value so it might still be the best hand.

[Renton]

you have an M of almost 20

you're still in great shape, no need to push marginal hands.

I think this is misleading because

(1) It's a 5-handed game so the blinds will be hitting him twice as often.
(2) It's a turbo so the blinds will be doubling very soon.
(3) It's easier to get chips now than it will be when it consolidates down to the final table.

I didn't investigate that deeply. However, even with thoses handicaps, its an effective m of like 10-12, and QT is far too crappy making a stand.

[drmcboy]

what sort of math did you run to figure out this is +EV?