JJ Late in Tourney UTG+2

[ElGato55]

Hi I've been browsing through this forum for awhile and decided to actually start posting. I'm just wondering if how I played this hand pre-flop was correct, i figured a raise from UTG+1 meant he had to have somethin good so I put in a raise where if he or any other player went over the top of me I could fold and if he smooth-called I would have a pretty good feel of the type of hands he could have and play the flop accordingly. Obviously I was screwed post-flop either way but I'm inquiring about my pre-flop play and what you guys think the correct play would be late in a tourney like this. This is the PokerStars 5.00 rebuy 25,000 guranteed tourney with a little less than 90 people left.

PokerStars Game #4056013974: Tournament #20002265, Hold'em No Limit -
Level XVI (3000/6000) - 2006/02/21 - 22:48:28 (ET)
Table '20002265 32' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: ElGato55 (103823 in chips)
Seat 2: river_rotta (90626 in chips)
Seat 3: dscottw (66154 in chips)
Seat 4: onnoquist (86312 in chips)
Seat 5: craffe9 (56392 in chips)
Seat 6: Tombstone30 (24356 in chips)
Seat 7: tim_barrell (464308 in chips)
Seat 8: CobraCai (92550 in chips)
Seat 9: lkarine (159560 in chips)
ElGato55: posts the ante 300
river_rotta: posts the ante 300
dscottw: posts the ante 300
onnoquist: posts the ante 300
craffe9: posts the ante 300
Tombstone30: posts the ante 300
tim_barrell: posts the ante 300
CobraCai: posts the ante 300
lkarine: posts the ante 300
Tombstone30: posts small blind 3000
tim_barrell: posts big blind 6000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ElGato55 [Jh Js]
CobraCai: folds
lkarine: raises 6000 to 12000
ElGato55: raises 13000 to 25000
river_rotta: folds
dscottw: folds
tim_barrell said, "is the weather nasty in houston like here"
onnoquist: folds
craffe9: folds
Tombstone30: folds
tim_barrell: folds
lkarine: calls 13000
*** FLOP *** [Jd 9d 2h]
G0T T!LT? [observer] said, "its pretty shietty."
lkarine: bets 134260 and is all-in
ElGato55: calls 78523 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [Jd 9d 2h] [Qh]
*** RIVER *** [Jd 9d 2h Qh] [4d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
lkarine: shows [Td Kd] (a flush, King high)
ElGato55: shows [Jh Js] (three of a kind, Jacks)
tim_barrell said, "ouch"
lkarine collected 218746 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 218746 | Rake 0
Board [Jd 9d 2h Qh 4d]
Seat 1: ElGato55 showed [Jh Js] and lost with three of a kind, Jacks
Seat 2: river_rotta folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: dscottw folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: onnoquist folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: craffe9 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Tombstone30 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: tim_barrell (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: CobraCai folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: lkarine showed [Td Kd] and won (218746) with a flush, King high

[drmcboy]

looks fine to me

[Sprayed]

Standard. You could have pushed over his raise pre-flop as well. JJ against KTs is a match-up that you want. Just unfortunate that he sucked out. It happens. gg nh

[chardrian]

I don't like your preflop raise. It's better than a minraise, but not much.

He needs to call 13k into a pot that has nearly 50k. Given that his stack is deeper than yours, and the implied odds if he hits, he should call here with basically any hand.

A raise to 35k preflop is more to my liking.

The flop just played itself out - he was thinking he had 12 outs minimum, and 18 outs maximum.

[drmcboy]

char - if you make it 35 to go and he pushes, are you calling?

[ElGato55]

I mean i guess i just wnated to put out a raise where if he smooth calls i know he has at best two overs and if he pushes he probably has me beat, given that also there are a lot more people to act i didnt want to put a good chunk of my stack with so many more people to act. I figure also that the close to min raise tells the rest of the table i have a hand and noone is really calling with anything but AK or QQ+ so I just thought at the time my bet was useful enough to figure out where i was in the hand.

[chardrian]

If he pushes, it's a tough call. My range then shrivels up to AK; AA-?? (TT is probably about as low as I would go with little reads); maybe AQ as well.

What I don't like about the small raise is that it makes it very reasonable to call with basically any two cards. Thus I disagree that it helps you get a read because he should be calling with basically any two there. If I have crap I'll call and try and spike a flop and/or portray that I have a K or an A with position to make some chips. And even if I had AA or KK here as the opp, I am probably just gonna call and try and suck you dry post flop. So the raise doesn't make most players fold and it gives you little information.

If you don't have the balls to make a real raise there preflop, I'd rather you just smooth call and play a flop. But that's just me.

[drmcboy]

most players don't min raise, ever. Most players that suck only do it with a big hand. Either way, I don't think you're getting a read here, whatever play you make. If he is smart enough to call with any two here, isn't he smart enough not to min raise in the first place?

I have plently of balls but I don't see where that applies here. Is it manly to jam the pot while you have no idea what your opponent has, or what you'll do after that? I don't get what you're saying here.

smooth calling with KK here would be very weird and basically give AK a free draw at you. AA, OK.

[chardrian]

Ok. Take 2.

You are correct lkarine's minraise was retarded. However, that doesn't change my stance as to whether or not Gato's play was correct. I still think Gato's bet was incorrect.

I understand that Gato didn't just re-minraise, but it's close enough. By raising only 13k, the aforementioned retarded lkarine has to call 13 k into a pot of close to 50k.

13/63=.206

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 77.4695 % 77.15% 00.32% { JJ }
Hand 2: 22.5305 % 22.21% 00.32% { random }

So even a random hand has the odds to call here. And I think we can agree that the minraise is probaly better than a random hand. So... Gato's reraise preflop was just not enuff in my book.

As far as my comment regarding AA or KK, I was hypothesizing as to what lkarine might have. You might jam KK so that you don't have to deal with those dreaded A flops, but others would call there.

My balls comment was just that the reraise was too weak. If you're gonna raise a raiser make it a true raise that actually will get you some read on your opp's range.

Just 10 more k here would have made it 23/73=.315 and therefore makes a retarded opp chase bad odds and a good opp will probably push and give you a better read.

Lastly, my criticism here is really minor. I don't think this hand was poorly played at all. But even minor suggestions can make a world of difference. In this case, I would suggest that you raise a bit more preflop.