A Situation I Hate

[WildBobAA]

okerStars Game #4047077376: Tournament #20002209, Hold'em No Limit - Level XIV (1500/3000) - 2006/02/21 - 01:53:58 (ET)
Table '20002209 61' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: WildBob182 (54910 in chips)
Seat 2: sw23 (21012 in chips)
Seat 3: KC_Steiner (76580 in chips)
Seat 4: dcraig1 (97343 in chips)
Seat 5: kurtmo5 (53365 in chips)
Seat 6: woody31 (27270 in chips)
Seat 7: juju1ner (12949 in chips)
Seat 8: mmags70 (75011 in chips)
Seat 9: soupie (61398 in chips)
WildBob182: posts the ante 150
sw23: posts the ante 150
KC_Steiner: posts the ante 150
dcraig1: posts the ante 150
kurtmo5: posts the ante 150
woody31: posts the ante 150
juju1ner: posts the ante 150
mmags70: posts the ante 150
soupie: posts the ante 150
soupie: posts small blind 1500
WildBob182: posts big blind 3000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to WildBob182 [Qh Ac]
sw23: folds
KC_Steiner: folds
dcraig1: folds
kurtmo5: folds
woody31: folds
juju1ner: folds
mmags70: raises 3000 to 6000
soupie: folds
WildBob182: ??

I really don't like any of my 3 options here. Calling, pushing, or folding.

If I call, I'm OOP with 2 high cards (with a hand that I despise) and I'm not sure what I'm rooting for on the flop. If the A hits, he might have me broke w/ AK or if the Q hits, he might have AA or KK.

If I raise, I'll be putting in 1/3 of my stack and I'll be commited anyway so I might as well push but in this case the only hands I'm getting called by have me dominated or at best TT or JJ (maybe 99) since we both have relatively large stacks.

Folding is just so weak.

AQ is just such a disgusting hand. I really think my best option is to call and hope I miss the flop lol.

Oh yeah, villian hasn't been very active, I'm not sure if this is a weak steal attempt of he has a legit hand.

[Phantaroth]

Call and hope for AQQ!

[KoRnholio]

It's probably a steal raise from that position. Your hand is likely best, I'd probably pop him back if I have seen him steal blinds at all. Even if he's tight, KQ, lower pp's, AT are all possible here.

[WildBobAA]

It's probably a steal raise from that position. Your hand is likely best, I'd probably pop him back if I have seen him steal blinds at all. Even if he's tight, KQ, lower pp's, AT are all possible here.

I know but that's one of the problems. If I raise him, I'm commiting myself so I might as well push, in which case he can afford to fold KQ or AT and I'm only gonna get called by a hand that has me beat. DOUCY

[Sprayed]

You should have asked soupie what you should do since he was sitting beside ya. Seriously, I think you could go with a push or a call here. If it was suited I would push over him. I think that the call is somewhat weak, but this is a hand that you would rather see the flop and then go from there. The min raise is suspect, but without much action from him it's hard to tell. If you reraise I think you’re right. You would be committing yourself.

[drmcboy]

This is gross.

bah, I want to re raise but the math just sucks, you are right.

I vote call, lead the flop for about 10k, give up if you are re raised unless you make TP.

[arkana]

Call and check raise if you hit, maybe lead if you miss depending on flop and opponent.

[Renton]

it's not that bad of a position. The range that the average player would raise with in that position falls far below that of AQ. However, that minimum raise seems to beg for a call. For that reason folding wouldn't be a horrible play. Just depends on your read on the guy.

[Lipkin]

I think Soupie would shove like the stud he is in this spot.

[drmcboy]

Call and check raise if you hit, maybe lead if you miss

nh

[johnny_fish]

I like calling or pushing. I don't understand how you can worry about AA/KK/AK. It's just an obvious blind steal attempt so it's a very wide range. Folding is horrible IMO.

- So just take the great odds and call. You might even bust AJ/AT/KQ/QJ that way if you hit.

-Or push and either increase your stack with 25% or take a flip.

A great situation to be in!

edit: Maybe can Soupie analyze this? :P

[chardrian]

This is one of those beautiful hands where you really can't go wrong no matter what you do. Anything you do is fine.

The most important part of hands like this is simply not to dwell on them once they are over. If you fold preflop or call/fold the flop, you played it fine, do not sit there thinking "damn I shoulda pushed." If you do push and run into a monster, you also need to realize that his range was wide enough there that your push was fine and you just got unlucky.

Personally, I usually like flops, so even though I'm OOP, I probably call there and play the flop.

[johnny_fish]

I'm not an good MTT player, but I can't understand how anyone could fold AQ to this minraise.. Would be difficult if he pushed though..

[Rondavu]

The bottom line here is that it's correct to get involved against a probable range weaker than your holding. Your goal after getting involved is to not committ yourself with the worst of it. In this spot I would reraise preflop and lead the flop. This would announce strength to my opponent, and if raised after leading, I can safely escape committment and spewage without hitting my hand. You make it very unlikely that postflop aggression from the opponent is empty, unless they are very very ballzy and overaggressive. You essentially turn the opponents cards face up for future action. This is how you defeat positional disadvantage with a hand like this. With a vulnerable hand you want to represent up front in order to define where you are early enough to escape. Think about JJ, and how you bet into flops that consistently show an overcard. Same theory.

Knowing how aggressive an opponent is postflop is very valuable in this spot for obvious reasons. It's way easier to get involved against more honest players, but it's also possible to make players MORE honest through your actions. You want to do just that with trappy hands like AQ.

[chardrian]

Announcing strength is great, but in this situation our hero doesn't have enough wiggle room to raise preflop, bet the flop... and then escape. By raising preflop and betting the flop he has committed himself to any reraise.

Again this is a fine play in this situation, but it is also a play that very well might be your last play of the tourney.

Let's say hero reraises preflop to 15,000 (I don't see how u can reraise any less). That leaves hero with about 40 k. And the pot will be about 33k. After raising preflop I don't see how he can bet any less than 18k on the flop which is now about half his stack and forces him into push/fold mode if he misses and gets reraised. So instead the better play on the flop would be to simply push.

I guess what it comes down to for me, is that since you really don't know what your opp has, by raising preflop you are in essence hoping that he will just fold and/or that you hit a flop. But you only hit a flop 1 out of 3 times. So if you are going to play this hand you really want to see all 5 cards.

The options to me are thus in agreement with wildbob's. You can call (hoping for your 1 in 3 flop and/or weakness from a steal), fold (you still have enough for quite a few orbits to find a spot - but this is my least favorite option), or just push (since raising here basically commits yourself and pushing puts the hard decision on your opp).

[Sprayed]

Where are we here? ITM?

[WildBobAA]

Not ITM yet, about 10 ppl out, 180 paid so no where near the FT. Guess that might be another reason to gamble here?

[Sprayed]

Not ITM yet, about 10 ppl out, 180 paid so no where near the FT. Guess that might be another reason to gamble here?

That's what I was thinking.

[Rondavu]

Announcing strength is great, but in this situation our hero doesn't have enough wiggle room to raise preflop, bet the flop... and then escape. By raising preflop and betting the flop he has committed himself to any reraise.

I don't believe in committment. Ask my girlfriend.

[chardrian]

Announcing strength is great, but in this situation our hero doesn't have enough wiggle room to raise preflop, bet the flop... and then escape. By raising preflop and betting the flop he has committed himself to any reraise.

I don't believe in committment. Ask my girlfriend.

I do - ask my wife.

Seriously though, I hate running your line and then folding here. I would much rather push preflop with AQ here than bet aggressively, fold and leave myself with such a short stack that I am forced into pushing two moderate cards when I am first to act.

[Cava72]

AQ sucks...see my posting :)

Call, see the flop...than act accordingly. No shame in folding...at least you assure yourself of staying in the tournament for however much longer.

Would love to know how you played out the hand....

[K2 the ArmA]

I completely go with my read here... if he seems tight and would only raise a stronger hand than my own and i think he would call all in i fold, otherwise i slam his face into the table, i want chips and first.

[WildBobAA]

Would love to know how you played out the hand....

I insta-pushed.

[T00LZ]

If you're thinking about pushing, could you not just call pre-flop and then push on the flop? (if the flop is somewhat promising, of couse)

[Warpe]

Would love to know how you played out the hand....

I insta-pushed.

[Sprayed]

Would love to know how you played out the hand....

I insta-pushed.

Were you robbed?

[WildBobAA]

He had AKs. I thought maybe I acted too fast and when I thought about it, this was a pretty complicated situation.

[Sprayed]

I don't think you made a bad play. There were a lot of ways that you could have played it, hence the nearly 30 posts to your thread.

[Rondavu]

Announcing strength is great, but in this situation our hero doesn't have enough wiggle room to raise preflop, bet the flop... and then escape. By raising preflop and betting the flop he has committed himself to any reraise.

I don't believe in committment. Ask my girlfriend.

I do - ask my wife.

Seriously though, I hate running your line and then folding here. I would much rather push preflop with AQ here than bet aggressively, fold and leave myself with such a short stack that I am forced into pushing two moderate cards when I am first to act.

I can't say I disagree with you or anyone else in this thread. I think you have a sound plan. It's tough to argue with it. I'll just say this. I don't mind running my line and folding later when technically committed. I've done it many times, and I make a lot of final tables. My goal at this stage is survival. So what if you're shortstacked. You're still in. You made a play, and had a great chance to win some needed chips without leaving the felt behind you. I think the status quo is to do what you would do. A lot of pros would agree. I'm unconventional though. I don't mind being committed and folding the worst hand. That's because I'm not going to be committed and fold the best hand very often. In this case, if you had done what I suggested, you would have given the villain possibly two more chances to make a big mistake. First would be preflop if he just calls your reraise, and second would be the flop if he wiffs and folds when you bet into him.

[Zidane18]

make it 20,000 and put the rest in on the flop. looks like a steal and u gotta protect ur big blind. lets u possibly outplay Ak or a small pp without a showdown

okerStars Game #4047077376: Tournament #20002209, Hold'em No Limit - Level XIV (1500/3000) - 2006/02/21 - 01:53:58 (ET)
Table '20002209 61' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: WildBob182 (54910 in chips)
Seat 2: sw23 (21012 in chips)
Seat 3: KC_Steiner (76580 in chips)
Seat 4: dcraig1 (97343 in chips)
Seat 5: kurtmo5 (53365 in chips)
Seat 6: woody31 (27270 in chips)
Seat 7: juju1ner (12949 in chips)
Seat 8: mmags70 (75011 in chips)
Seat 9: soupie (61398 in chips)
WildBob182: posts the ante 150
sw23: posts the ante 150
KC_Steiner: posts the ante 150
dcraig1: posts the ante 150
kurtmo5: posts the ante 150
woody31: posts the ante 150
juju1ner: posts the ante 150
mmags70: posts the ante 150
soupie: posts the ante 150
soupie: posts small blind 1500
WildBob182: posts big blind 3000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to WildBob182 [Qh Ac]
sw23: folds
KC_Steiner: folds
dcraig1: folds
kurtmo5: folds
woody31: folds
juju1ner: folds
mmags70: raises 3000 to 6000
soupie: folds
WildBob182: ??

I really don't like any of my 3 options here. Calling, pushing, or folding.

If I call, I'm OOP with 2 high cards (with a hand that I despise) and I'm not sure what I'm rooting for on the flop. If the A hits, he might have me broke w/ AK or if the Q hits, he might have AA or KK.

If I raise, I'll be putting in 1/3 of my stack and I'll be commited anyway so I might as well push but in this case the only hands I'm getting called by have me dominated or at best TT or JJ (maybe 99) since we both have relatively large stacks.

Folding is just so weak.

AQ is just such a disgusting hand. I really think my best option is to call and hope I miss the flop lol.

Oh yeah, villian hasn't been very active, I'm not sure if this is a weak steal attempt of he has a legit hand.

[WildBobAA]

make it 20,000 and put the rest in on the flop. looks like a steal and u gotta protect ur big blind. lets u possibly outplay Ak or a small pp without a showdown

And if he has Ak, he's just going to push over my 20K raise. I'd rather just push myself.

[Zidane18]

make it 20,000 and put the rest in on the flop. looks like a steal and u gotta protect ur big blind. lets u possibly outplay Ak or a small pp without a showdown

And if he has Ak, he's just going to push over my 20K raise. I'd rather just push myself.

he might not. he should, but ppl make mistakes. worth a shot anyway

[WildBobAA]

I think that's a horrible line.

[Zidane18]

I think that's a horrible line.

just think about it.

u act 1st after the flop, and unless he pushes over ur raise then u can act first on the flop and mayb push him off a better hand like AK on a ragg flop

[Sprayed]

I think that's a horrible line.

just think about it.

u act 1st after the flop, and unless he pushes over ur raise then u can act first on the flop and mayb push him off a better hand like AK on a ragg flop

Dude, if villain has AK he's going to push against a reraise.