Four buyin downswing...

[Renton]

Theres no way I could avoid getting stacked here, right?

***** Hand History for Game 3605987614 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, February 22, 23:27:42 ET 2006
Table Hot Ride (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 3: jrussell2 ( $27.23 )
Seat 4: mariner97058 ( $0 )
Seat 10: AT8Fingers ( $41.40 )
Seat 1: Renton555 ( $24.40 )
Seat 7: rabbitsfoot_ ( $24.90 )
Seat 2: FrankStuart ( $75.79 )
Seat 5: Qryche_Fan ( $22.58 )
Seat 8: chinesegirl1 ( $4.15 )
Seat 9: AlyssaWick ( $4.65 )
Seat 6: wiredkid1 ( $18.25 )
jrussell2 posts small blind [$0.10].
Qryche_Fan posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Renton555 [ Ad Ac ]
wiredkid1 folds.
rabbitsfoot_ folds.
chinesegirl1 folds.
AlyssaWick folds.
AT8Fingers folds.
mariner97058 has left the table.
Renton555 raises [$1].
FrankStuart calls [$1].
jrussell2 folds.
Qryche_Fan folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kc, Js, 4c ]
mike2622 has joined the table.
Renton555 bets [$2].
>You have options at Sea Swag Table!.
FrankStuart calls [$2].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9s ]
>You have options at Sea Swag Table!.
Renton555 bets [$6].
FrankStuart calls [$6].
** Dealing River ** [ As ]
>You have options at Bean Bag Table!.
Renton555 is all-In [$15.40]
>You have options at Sea Swag Table!.
>You have options at Phaedra Table!.
FrankStuart calls [$15.40].
Renton555 shows [ Ad, Ac ] three of a kind, aces.
FrankStuart shows [ 2s, Ks ] a flush, ace high.
FrankStuart wins $46.70 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.

Yep because when I think of hands to call preflop raises with, You bet your sweet ass I think of K2 suited.

On top of that I was potting at every street, and he STILL chases that flush draw. Sure, he had the king, but he had to know that his king wasn't good. I was dutifully representing AA, KK or AK.

To add insult to injury, this guy thinks about it for like 15 seconds as if I might have the boat.

To add anguish to insult and injury, I was simultaneous stacked at another table when I had trip aces with AK to someones boat, and I was stacked twice at other tables about twenty minutes ago on similar accounts.

On the brighter side, I am now on a two buy in upswing, so if I continue to get lucky, I might get a break even 3.5 hour session. : (

[nutsinho]

donkishly betting 6$ on the turn set that one up

On the river, you don't need to be able to put him on K2; that is ridiculous. All you had to do was consider that it was possible for him to have two spades in his hand. Also, the straight was a distinct possibility given the action. If there wasn't too much money in the pot because of your turn bet your river decision(s) would be easier.

[midas06]

At 25nl my standard raise is $1.50. Not enough respect given to a 4x raise at this level.

[arkana]

donkishly betting 6$ on the turn set that one up

How is betting almost pot donkish?

[Renton]

donkishly betting 6$ on the turn set that one up

On the river, you don't need to be able to put him on K2; that is ridiculous. All you had to do was consider that it was possible for him to have two spades in his hand. Also, the straight was a distinct possibility given the action. If there wasn't too much money in the pot because of your turn bet your river decision(s) would be easier.

So am I supposed to give up on the turn when I obviously am 80% ahead in the hand, just because I am afraid of a straight/ flush draw?

So the non "donkish" decision would be to check the turn and give him infinite pot odds to chase his straight/ flush?

No. His apparent hand was TPTK, or a set, both of which I am ahead of. Obviously it was a slight misstep that I went all in on the river, but I was basically pot-committed. There were too many hands I had beat at that point, for me to not bet for value on the end.

This post was a really just a rant. I needed to express all the tilt emotions created by this hand, so I could get back to the game and win my four buy-ins back (which I did. I ended the session -4$ : )

[nutsinho]

potting the turn is donkish because there are too many hands that beat him to be betting 1/4 of his stack before the river, out of position no less

"can't give a free card" is retarded when you are out of position and possibly way behind


i thought u were good arkana

[Renton]

potting the turn is donkish because there are too many hands that beat him to be betting 1/4 of his stack before the river...

If by "too many," you meant "five," then I suppose you may be onto something.

[nutsinho]

Well, I count 11 but maybe I'm just retarded

[Renton]

Look I don't want to argue. I wouldn't have posted this hand if I didn't want other opinions.

By my way of thinking, the only FEASIBLE HANDS that beat me at the turn are:

KK, JJ, 44, KJ, and 99.

And at the river I have all of these hands beat.

[Rondavu]

The lower the stakes, the faster you need to put the money in the middle. That includes preflop and postflop. Preflop raises need to be at least $1.50 at these stakes, and if you think you have a best hand on the flop, slightly overbet it a lot. If called, just push the turn a lot of the time when blanks appear.

The proper way to play 25NL and below, is to have a high variance style which takes full advantage of players who make large mistakes often. Think about when you have a full house on a paired board, let someone make a flush or straight, and then push. This doesn't work against smart players. This DOES work often enough against 25NL and below players. This concept applies to a wide range of hand strengths. For instance, when you have TPTK, and the stupid opponent has a rag kicker. You get it all in fast, and they'll destack for you. This is how 25NL and below is played correctly.

You would have been correct to push the turn, and get sucked out after your chips were in the middle.

[Miffed22001]

you pushed the river into a completed flush draw on the river
asking to be stacked...

[nutsinho]

I'm not trying to be a dick either. A turn push is better than the bet you made. Making the pot bigger than your remaining stack out of position with a vulnerable hand on a drawing board is a mistake though in my opinion. I also dont mind the river push as worse hands will call often and you only really had to worry about Kx spades and QT. I just think you need to really get a lot of money in on the turn if you think youre ahead or make a smaller bet if you don't want to play for stacks. I would not want to play for stacks in this spot but then again i have not played NL25 in a while.

[Vrax]

At 25nl my standard raise is $1.50. Not enough respect given to a 4x raise at this level.

My 3x UTG raise picks up the blinds every 3nd hand - I raise {88+ AJs, AQo+}. Other two times I get 4-6 callers. Random, just random crazy game

[Renton]

One thing I noticed (probably later than most):

25nl players will play just about ANY Ax Kx Qx suited if at all possible. I think someone has the flush in a 25nl game literally EVERY time there are three to a suit on the board.

[Fnord]

I think someone has the flush in a 25nl game literally EVERY time there are three to a suit on the board.

This is easy to disprove. At worst it's like 30-40% with 9 way flops, but I can't remember the numbers anymore.

[Dislexsik]

I think someone has the flush in a 25nl game literally EVERY time there are three to a suit on the board.

Lol true,if theirs a flush possibilty,u can be sure almost 90% somebody has a flush.

[Fnord]

Lol true,if theirs a flush possibilty,u can be sure almost 90% somebody has a flush.

Why do players that try say/believe silly things like this?

[Renton]

I am talking 25nl only.

And from my (limited) experience if the pot is at least 3-way and there are three to a flush on the board, someone's got it.

I will even go so far as to say that if the pot is 5-way or more, and I have a bb special of 27s with a flopped flush, someone has me beat with some trash like Q4s a large percentage of the time.

[Fnord]

And from my (limited) experience if the pot is at least 3-way and there are three to a flush on the board, someone's got it.

That's your perception.

[WhooFleuryScores]

You need to push by the turn.Stop clowning him if he wants to chase.

[arkana]

potting the turn is donkish because there are too many hands that beat him to be betting 1/4 of his stack before the river, out of position no less

"can't give a free card" is retarded when you are out of position and possibly way behind


i thought u were good arkana

A turn push is better than the bet you made.

So you think Hero is possibly way behind and that is your reasoning for pushing the turn instead of betting close to the pot. Yes I see that makes sense, lets fold out all the hands that we beat and get called by all the hands that beat us. $21 into a $6 pot, this might work against the absolute worst players ever but if your opponents have any clue I can promise you you only get called by better hands making a turn push -EV (not enough money in the pot to make up for the times you get called by a better hand). Then again this is $25NL where its hard to make more mistakes than your opponents...

If someone wants to call a pot sized bet on a draw I dont mind because I dont necessarily pay off when they hit so I want them to draw, however if you suck post flop then I suppose pushing the turn is the way to go. Or were you advocating check folding?

[nutsinho]

Can hero fold if villain minraises the 6 dollar bet on the turn and then bets 8 bucks or whatever on the river??

[arkana]

Can hero fold if villain minraises the 6 dollar bet on the turn and then bets 8 bucks or whatever on the river??

Yes if Hero is any good he can fold to a turn minraise.

[nutsinho]

"Yep because when I think of hands to call preflop raises with, You bet your sweet ass I think of K2 suited. "

This comment makes me quite sure hero is NOT good

[strawman]

potting the turn is donkish because there are too many hands that beat him to be betting 1/4 of his stack before the river, out of position no less

"can't give a free card" is retarded when you are out of position and possibly way behind

I'm lost on this one and from the way the discussion of this is going don't send out a rescue party. Betting base on my stack size and not the size of the pot in a ring game?

[cardsman1992]

"Yep because when I think of hands to call preflop raises with, You bet your sweet ass I think of K2 suited. "

This comment makes me quite sure hero is NOT good

That was said with sarcasm, I think.

[Renton]

"Yep because when I think of hands to call preflop raises with, You bet your sweet ass I think of K2 suited. "

This comment makes me quite sure hero is NOT good

That was said with sarcasm!!!

Fixt your post

[crikreef]

ya I can't support the AI on the river because of possible flush, which a lot of crappy players will try and fish out, no matter how shitty the odds are, and the possible straight. What if Villan was playing Q-10c? I've seen many poor plays where odds get thrown straight out the window with that straight and flush draw on the flop...

He knew you had him beat, I assume, but the nature of 25NL is that you get poor players making poor calls on poor odds.

[Miffed22001]

start playing for stacks more when your ahead