How to play A-J (it always screws me)

[Death_Kube_K]

READS: Everyone in this hand are calling stations except for the guy to my left, he is tight this is the 2nd time he limped. He check raised the guy the previous hand he limped.............
Also when does this peice of shit hand deserve a raise?

PokerStars Game #4102875463: Tournament #20002593, Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2006/02/26 - 03:50:37 (ET)
Table '20002593 12' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Porta103 (3160 in chips)
Seat 2: batlecry (1370 in chips)
Seat 3: WMachnicki (1050 in chips)
Seat 4: jcsydney (2955 in chips)
Seat 5: Duncan4404 (1825 in chips)
Seat 6: Flintock (1755 in chips)
Seat 7: sasha65 (4215 in chips)
Seat 8: dtdog22 (2215 in chips)
Seat 9: got tonkaed (3965 in chips)
Duncan4404: posts small blind 25
Flintock: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to batlecry [Jc As]
sasha65: calls 50
dtdog22: folds
got tonkaed: folds
Porta103: calls 50
batlecry????

[donkbee]

Given the blinds and the two limpers before me already, I personally would limp it in this particular hand and then fold to any raise (preflop). If there is no raise and an ace flops, I can be pretty sure it's good. Same goes for a jack high flop.

Early in a SnG, I don't raise AJ unless it's folded to me in LP. It starts looking better with less players in the late stages of tourneys though. Raise it with position, but don't overvalue it. You're right, it's a piece of shit and should be used with caution. It can be a good hand if played properly.

[Scuba Chuck]

Have you read this?

[fasin8ing]

Given the blinds and the two limpers before me already, I personally would limp it in this particular hand and then fold to any raise (preflop). If there is no raise and an ace flops, I can be pretty sure it's good. Same goes for a jack high flop.

Early in a SnG, I don't raise AJ unless it's folded to me in LP. It starts looking better with less players in the late stages of tourneys though. Raise it with position, but don't overvalue it. You're right, it's a piece of shit and should be used with caution. It can be a good hand if played properly.

Are you raising or calling with this hand if it were suited and you had 2 limpers and you were in LP?

[Renton]

READS: Also when does this peice of shit hand deserve a raise?

AJo is a great hand unless your up against AK or AQ. In shorthanded game (6 or less) it is worth a raise preflop from any position. In a full ring game, or early in a tournament I fold it in first position (maybe in second too), and raise any other position. ALWAYS fold AJ to a reraise preflop, unless its suited (and the reraise is affordable), then play for the two pair or the flush.

Generally you avoid being dominated in 95 percent of cases if you play AJ this way.

[samsonite2100]

AJo is a terrible hand that you shouldn't even be thinking about playing early on in a SNG.

[Renton]

AJo is a piece of shit hand that you shouldn't even be thinking about playing early on in a SNG.

Halfway through writing my post I realized this was the SNG forum. Your right, I would probably not play AJ at all in a SNG unless I was in LP until like the 50/100 level.

[konahead]

AJo is at best a limp in MP with 25/50 blinds.

Might not hurt to see a flop if you're willing to fold if an ace comes and you meet resistance, but preflop folding is your best option. You gotta get used to folding out "pretty" hands that tend to just get you in trouble. EP limpers could be coming in with AK or AQ, making you a fairly big underdog. (and don't say they would have raised AK cuz lots of players limp it in EP when the blinds are low - just ask vqc.....) Your best flop would be a couple of jacks, but how often is that going to happen? Just dump it...

[Rondavu]

I limp AJ, and I'll call a small raise with it against honest/slightly loose opponents who will tell me if I'm ahead after the flop before I get committed. I'm talking about someone that will raise KJ, hit a AT2 flop with a gut shot, and immediately retreat into passive chase mode deeper than they should. I play AJ against people like this.

I don't play AJ against aggressive opponents. They're going to tell me bad stories after the flop as it is. I don't need the added headache of potential domination against them. Aggressive opponents give you more value on a higher range. For instance, they're going to stack off with A8 against your AK on an ace flop if you let them, so it's not worth playing stuff like AJ against them.

[WildBobAA]

AJ is trash.

[donkbee]

Are you raising or calling with this hand if it were suited and you had 2 limpers and you were in LP?

Calling. I don't care if it's suited, it's not worth a raise.

AJo is a terrible hand that you shouldn't even be thinking about playing early on in a SNG.

I disagree, I think it's fine to play this hand as long as there is no raise preflop and you're willing to let it go on the flop if someone tells you you're beat. At the $5.50 level, players play ANY ace, and if you can limp it, you will have the best kicker if the ace flops.

and don't say they would have raised AK cuz lots of players limp it in EP when the blinds are low - just ask vqc

At the $5.50s and $11s, I hardly ever see anyone limp AK or AQ in EP. These hands are pretty much always raised at these levels, therefore I'll limp AJ no problem. I myself will limp AQ/AK in EP all the time, but I (and vcq, who shouldn't be playing at these levels anyway) am an exception. They are almost always raised at these levels and so I never worry about that. Obviously there's always a couple exceptions to this, but they're not often enough to worry about.

Maybe playing AJ this way doesn't work once you get past say the $22 SnGs, I wouldn't know. But for the lower levels, playing AJ this way works.

Edit: I wrote this post thinking this was in a $5.50 buyin for some reason. Sorry if it's not the case or if the posts above weren't talking about lower level buyins.

[Rondavu]

AJ is playable. You just have to know how to play it, and against whom.

[samsonite2100]

I disagree, I think it's fine to play this hand as long as there is no raise preflop and you're willing to let it go on the flop if someone tells you you're beat. At the $5.50 level, players play ANY ace, and if you can limp it, you will have the best kicker if the ace flops.

No offense, Courtie, but I think you're completely wrong about this. In the early stages of an SNG, you should basically only be playing PPs, AK and AQ. There's just no sense in getting involved w/ marginal hands early on, I don't care what buy-in you play at, and AJo is the definition of a marginal hand. There is a mint to be made letting people who overvalue hands like AJ, QJ, KJ, etc., duke it out early.

[samsonite2100]

Rondavu--how can you have a good enough read early on in an SNG to identify a player as "someone that retreats in to passive chase mode?" I get your point, but isn't it maybe more applicable to ring play?

[donkbee]

I disagree, I think it's fine to play this hand as long as there is no raise preflop and you're willing to let it go on the flop if someone tells you you're beat. At the $5.50 level, players play ANY ace, and if you can limp it, you will have the best kicker if the ace flops.

No offense, Courtie, but I think you're completely wrong about this. In the early stages of an SNG, you should basically only be playing PPs, AK and AQ. There's just no sense in getting involved w/ marginal hands early on, I don't care what buy-in you play at, and AJo is the definition of a marginal hand. There is a mint to be made letting people who overvalue hands like AJ, QJ, KJ, etc., duke it out early.

You're right, many many chips to be made off people who overvalue these hands. Which is precisely why I am willing to limp AJ, I will win many chips from people who overvalue their Ax and their KJ/QJ. I agree AJ is a marginal hand, which is why I am folding to any raise. If you do not overvalue it, it is a playable hand. I play KQ the same way. I think you are missing out on valuable chips by saying you shouldn't play it at all.

[samsonite2100]

I think you are missing out on valuable chips by saying you shouldn't play it at all.

I think, by not playing hands like AJo early, I am:

1) opting out of having to make marginal post-flop calls, and thereby
2) saving valuable chips for the bubble stage

If you're telling me you have the discipline to always lay down AJ when you hit an A on the flop, well, I don't really believe you, but if you do, you are an incredibly disciplined player. Also, what about when you limp AJ from the CO and the BB raises 3x. Are you folding?

If you're having success w/ these type of hands, more power to you, but I suspect that for most people they are a slow leak.

[nickthefool]

samsonite i think you are right in one way, but also wrong in others

i feel marginal hands can be played early on in sngs, just as long as you are good enough to know when you're beat and fold

but if playing marginal hands gets you into trouble a lot, then the range you suggested is a good one

[samsonite2100]

but if playing marginal hands gets you into trouble a lot, then the range you suggested is a good one

IMO it applies to everyone--disciplined, or not. There is simply no point in putting your stack at risk early in a sit and go unless you stand a very good chance of winning--i.e. AA, KK, etc. The bubble is where SNGs are won and lost, plain and simple. If your personal strategy includes putting your stack to any extent in play pre-bubble, monster hands excluded, I believe you are playing SNGs less than optimally.

[vqc]

I Just fold AJ levels 1-2

Then again, at PP if I start out as the button, by the time it moves around once, its already level 3. So its almost like im playing AJ in leves 1 and 2... but not really...

Im brushing my teeth.

[donkbee]

If you're telling me you have the discipline to always lay down AJ when you hit an A on the flop, well, I don't really believe you, but if you do, you are an incredibly disciplined player.

I am not saying this at all. I WANT the A to hit because if it does, I have the best kicker. Someone who limped AT is gonna lose all his chips to me.

Also, what about when you limp AJ from the CO and the BB raises 3x. Are you folding?

I limp from the CO only if there are limpers before me. If it is raised, I fold. If it is folded to me, I raise and this is a position raise. If I am called, I play the flop accordingly. If an ace hits in this case and the guy calls or reraises my bet on the flop, I am willing to let the hand go.

[WildBobAA]

Open limping from the CO is just a horrible play all around.

[donkbee]

To whom is that comment directed at?

[Death_Kube_K]

Thank you all for the insight it will really help me out!

[Rondavu]

There is simply no point in putting your stack at risk early in a sit and go unless you stand a very good chance of winning--i.e. AA, KK, etc. The bubble is where SNGs are won and lost, plain and simple. If your personal strategy includes putting your stack to any extent in play pre-bubble, monster hands excluded, I believe you are playing SNGs less than optimally.

I think you're playing less than optimally yourself. Nut camping until the bubble is fine. It's safe, and it places 123 a lot. Mostly it places 23. I think your advice is fine for people who have no post flop ability. In my opinion, the most optimal way to play a SnG is to see a lot of cheap flops early on hoping to take a stack or two. If you get to the bubble with a 3-4xStack, you'll hammer everyone. That's reality. If you nut camp, you'll get to the bubble and find yourself up against 2-3 bigger stacks. If this is a $50+ SnG, those big stacks will own you.

Your first priority in any SnG should be to build a stack that will hammer the bubble. Your second priority is "just making the money". You should be playing a wide range of hands for the right price, when the implied odds are there for stack building. Bad players = Implied odds. Players that will pay off your AJ with Ax on a AJ2 rainbow are the type I'm talking about. Even people that will play a small pot 300-400ish with you are awesome when you have them kicked. The fact is, AJ has a lot of value albeit dangerous value. You should try to extract the value it does have early on, and not be so afraid of the dangerous part.

I think folding AJ in the CO early on is a fine move, but I have been known to play looking to pork Ax, and usually raise. It's not incorrect to get into a hand on a loose passive table where you potentially hold the biggest ace. It's definately not horrible in the right situation, if you're disciplined enough to get away when you're beat. Don't be robotic. Be Sam Farha. See flops and take stacks. That's how you play optimally early on.

[samsonite2100]

I think your advice is fine for people who have no post flop ability.

The other way of looking at it is that it's good advice for people who thrive on the bubble. I'm personally good at bubble play and have found over time that as long as I'm hovering around 1x starting stack, when the time comes I can usually make ITM. Maybe building a deep stack is fine for people who have no bubble ability?
Also, I think your 2-3 analysis is unfounded. Of course, it's great to get to the bubble w/ 3x, but that lead can and does evaporate quickly if you're not good at bubble play.

[samsonite2100]

BTW, where does your avatar come from, Rondavu? Is it Scanners?

[Rondavu]

BTW, where does your avatar come from, Rondavu? Is it Scanners?

Wish I knew. I just liked it. Found it on some google search.

As for the thread, I think whether you play a marginal hand like AJ at this stage has a lot to do with personal style and ability. Getting a large stack on the bubble gives me a heavy edge. I don't know how many times I go from 3500 or so to 5500 on the bubble by slamming all in continuosly against people with 1200 or less. Then the bubble bursts and I'm close to 6K against two people with less than 4K. I take any and all opportunities to build a high stack throughout. More often than not I don't build the stack, and I hit the bubble with about 1-2K anyway, which is fine with me. I just feel like you gotta take a few chances to put yourself in a dominant position if it's affordable.

[donkbee]

Nut camping until the bubble is fine. It's safe, and it places 123 a lot. Mostly it places 23. I think your advice is fine for people who have no post flop ability. In my opinion, the most optimal way to play a SnG is to see a lot of cheap flops early on hoping to take a stack or two. If you get to the bubble with a 3-4xStack, you'll hammer everyone. That's reality. If you nut camp, you'll get to the bubble and find yourself up against 2-3 bigger stacks. If this is a $50+ SnG, those big stacks will own you.

Your first priority in any SnG should be to build a stack that will hammer the bubble. Your second priority is "just making the money". You should be playing a wide range of hands for the right price, when the implied odds are there for stack building. Bad players = Implied odds. Players that will pay off your AJ with Ax on a AJ2 rainbow are the type I'm talking about. Even people that will play a small pot 300-400ish with you are awesome when you have them kicked. The fact is, AJ has a lot of value albeit dangerous value. You should try to extract the value it does have early on, and not be so afraid of the dangerous part.

I think folding AJ in the CO early on is a fine move, but I have been known to play looking to pork Ax, and usually raise. It's not incorrect to get into a hand on a loose passive table where you potentially hold the biggest ace. It's definately not horrible in the right situation, if you're disciplined enough to get away when you're beat. Don't be robotic. Be Sam Farha. See flops and take stacks. That's how you play optimally early on.

I agree with everything here. Great post, Rondavu.

[Rockymv]

nah i fold it PF.

if you're playing AJ early because you're good at postflop poker, you better be playing a whooole lot of other hands too.

[Sprayed]

I think that it depends upon the buy-in if you're going to play AJ. The guys at Cardrunners.com are great post flop players and yet they don't fool around in low buy-in tourneys early with this type of hand. They camp and wait for people to bust out or until they get a monster. In higher buy-ins they mix it up because they get some respect and better reads. When I say higher I'm talking about, and depending upon the site, $100+.

[Death_Kube_K]

its Pokerstars 5 dollar 1 table

[Sprayed]

its Pokerstars 5 dollar 1 table

In that case it's not worth playing AJ this early. I don't care if you are a great post flop player. Hold onto you chips because you will be down to 6-5 players in only a couple of minutes. This is when you start playing these types of hands.

[Death_Kube_K]

so in what buyins would you start playing the A-J early?

[donkbee]

so in what buyins would you start playing the A-J early?

Read the rest of the posts before this one.

I don't think you can simply say, "don't play AJ" at any buyin.

[samsonite2100]

I'm saying it. Don't play AJo, or other similar hands, in SNGs under, say, the $55 buyin. What you gain in the occasional favorable flop, assuming your hand holds up, you're losing and then some, in other ways, namely:

1) a slow bleeding of your stack by limping these iffy hands and not hitting a good flop

2) having TPWK w/ 5 other jackasses on the flop, all of whom will pay exorbitantly to outdraw you

3) surrendering your greatest advantage at lower SNG levels, i.e. the ability to not play shitty hands and stay out of risky situations, thereby putting you consistently in the top five with a shot to place ITM.

Rondavu makes a good argument above, but I remain unconvinced, particularly if the buyin in question is 5.50 (or 11, or 22).

[Sprayed]

so in what buyins would you start playing the A-J early?

Read the rest of the posts before this one.

I don't think you can simply say, "don't play AJ" at any buyin.

I agree. It's always situational. My point is that you need to be able to play after the flop well with difficult hands. The winning strat for most in low buy-ins is to play uber tight during the first few levels. When it gets down to 6-5 people you can open up the hands that you play.

[donkbee]

I'm saying it. Don't play AJo, or other similar hands, in SNGs under, say, the $55 buyin. What you gain in the occasional favorable flop, assuming your hand holds up, you're losing and then some, in other ways, namely:

1) a slow bleeding of your stack by limping these iffy hands and not hitting a good flop

2) having TPWK w/ 5 other jackasses on the flop, all of whom will pay exorbitantly to outdraw you

3) surrendering your greatest advantage at lower SNG levels, i.e. the ability to not play shitty hands and stay out of risky situations, thereby putting you consistently in the top five with a shot to place ITM.

Rondavu makes a good argument above, but I remain unconvinced, particularly if the buyin in question is 5.50 (or 11, or 22).

1) When the blinds are less than 2% of my stack (BB=20 and my stack=1500), I will limp in with AJ and KQ no problem. When the blinds are less than 4% of my stack (BB=50, stack =1300), I will limp in with those hands no problem as well. I am able to get away from a less than optimal flop without my stack suffering much of a loss. If I do hit the flop, I have a chance to gain a lot of chips. By the time the blinds are high enough relative to my stack, I will not be limping these hands anymore, I will be raising them or folding them.

2) Not everyone will pay to draw, maybe one of the jackasses will. Good, I want him to pay me off.

3) Placing in the money is good, but I like to give myself a shot to win 1st. Playing AJ this way gives me a chance to win extra chips without risking too much of my stack. I think Rondavu mentioned that you will still have pretty much the same stack by the bubble anyway, so you may as well give yourself a shot at these chips.

I see what you're saying and you argue your points well, but I remain unconvinced too.

[Rondavu]

I'm saying it. Don't play AJo, or other similar hands, in SNGs under, say, the $55 buyin.

3) surrendering your greatest advantage at lower SNG levels, i.e. the ability to not play shitty hands and stay out of risky situations, thereby putting you consistently in the top five with a shot to place ITM.

I agree with this. I may be less inclined to play AJ early at the lower $$ SnG's.

[LordoftheIsles]

I don't play AJo in early levels, except open/betting it in LP (though if there are aggressive players on my left I may throw it away here too). AJs I'll usually limp with. I'm with Samsonite2100 in almost everything he's posted.

Rondavu's point about taking chips off the people who'll play Ax isn't a bad one but the trouble is, after limping with AJ, you won't just be playing against them but also plenty of others who will play almost any two cards. It can be tough to play top pair good/top kicker against 5 opps when you won't know where you are (if ever before showdown) until a fair number of your chips are in the pot.

Which brings up the point about building a big stack being worth the risk of bleeding away some chips early in an SNG. I'm in the other camp, just playing premium hands plus occasionally small/medium pairs and suited connectors/Aces if it is dirt cheap and enough limpers already in. Being able to bully at bubble time is good but I'm happier just reaching the bubble with a playable stack. And to keep some leverage against the 2-3 k stacks you need as close to your starting 1500 chips as possible (adjustments for 1k starting sites left as an exercise for the reader). There's a big difference between a 2.5k stack facing a 1.5k stack which can do him damage and a 900 stack where he'll still be in decent shape even if he loses in a stackoff. It's not just the total size of the stack either but how it matches the blinds. A 900 chip stack soon gets to all-in as the only move whereas with 1300-1500 you have a little more leeway and can still make plays.

The discussion about strategies that work for you and matching them up with the things you do best is interesting. I'd never thought about playing well on the bubble going with a very tight early plan but it makes sense and maybe the best sng strategy for a person should take their strengths (and weaknesses) into account. I can see Rondavu's point since there are usually short stacks I can bully at bubble time when I am the big stack. But it never worries me when I'm playing with a 1.2-1.6k stack around bubble time. Perhaps it's because that's gear-changing time for me and I'm not afraid to put all my chips in (repeatedly) as long as the situation looks favourable for that. Note that it just needs one double through of my 1.5k vs a 4k stack and I'm ahead (common at fast structure sites like Party & Crypto, less so on Stars where it doesn't become an all-in fest till much later). Perhaps also the tight image I've built up gets me more respect until the rest of the table notices the gear change.

That last point may work better at higher buy-in levels. I play $55 & $109 and people there do notice. Long while since I played $11 & $33 on Party but if I remember corrrectly no one ever gets respect in those

One last thing: Samsonite2100 wondered if AJo becomes playable at $55 and above. Maybe slightly more playable; I guess at a very passive table I might open/raise with it from MP sometimes. You are more likely to get folds at higher buy-ins since calling stations are much rarer than at lower ones but for the most part, I still throw it away. Blinds hardly worth the effort, until 25/50 at least.

Great thread this.