loosening up early in multitable sngs

[FlyingSaucy]

Going from UB's $20 single table sngs to Stars' 45 player $5 Sngs has been rough on me. I am having a hard time adjusting to the incredible looseness of the game. I've seen some horrendous excrement coming from so many players, it has caused me to loosen up a lot. However, how loose is too loose? Advice/Comments are appreciated.

PokerStars Game #4145398890: Tournament #20600647, Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2006/03/01 - 23:08:25 (ET)
Table '20600647 3' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 2: LV_Jamoke (1770 in chips)
Seat 3: pudmonkey69 (2425 in chips)
Seat 4: milosh68 (4730 in chips)
Seat 6: baca80 (1145 in chips)
Seat 7: toerazor (2490 in chips)
Seat 8: Bigger Kirk (3605 in chips)
Seat 9: FlyingSaucy (1955 in chips)
Bigger Kirk: posts small blind 25
FlyingSaucy: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to FlyingSaucy [2h 9d]
LV_Jamoke: folds
pudmonkey69: folds
milosh68: calls 50
baca80: calls 50
toerazor: folds
Bigger Kirk: calls 25
FlyingSaucy: checks
*** FLOP *** [9c 2c 3h]
Bigger Kirk: bets 100
FlyingSaucy: raises 200 to 300
milosh68: folds
baca80: raises 200 to 500
GJRPoker is connected
Bigger Kirk: calls 400
FlyingSaucy:




PokerStars Game #4145533668: Tournament #20600647, Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2006/03/01 - 23:18:02 (ET)
Table '20600647 3' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: GJRPoker (5860 in chips)
Seat 2: LV_Jamoke (1620 in chips)
Seat 3: Jalin218 (1580 in chips)
Seat 4: milosh68 (6480 in chips)
Seat 5: Toothpic_Vic (1550 in chips)
Seat 6: baca80 (3085 in chips)
Seat 7: toerazor (1740 in chips)
Seat 9: FlyingSaucy (2170 in chips)
GJRPoker: posts small blind 50
LV_Jamoke: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to FlyingSaucy [Tc Ah]
Jalin218: folds
milosh68: calls 100
Toothpic_Vic: folds
baca80: calls 100
toerazor has timed out
toerazor: folds
toerazor is sitting out
FlyingSaucy: raises 200 to 300
GJRPoker: calls 250
LV_Jamoke: calls 200
milosh68: calls 200
toerazor has returned
baca80: calls 200
*** FLOP *** [Qh As Qc]
GJRPoker: bets 400
LV_Jamoke: folds
milosh68: folds
baca80: folds
FlyingSaucy:




PokerStars Game #4145565351: Tournament #20600647, Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2006/03/01 - 23:20:22 (ET)
Table '20600647 3' Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: GJRPoker (7060 in chips)
Seat 2: LV_Jamoke (1220 in chips)
Seat 3: Jalin218 (1780 in chips)
Seat 4: milosh68 (6080 in chips)
Seat 5: Toothpic_Vic (1550 in chips)
Seat 6: baca80 (2785 in chips)
Seat 7: toerazor (1740 in chips)
Seat 9: FlyingSaucy (1870 in chips)
Jalin218: posts small blind 75
milosh68: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to FlyingSaucy [Th Tc]
Toothpic_Vic: folds
baca80: folds
toerazor: folds
FlyingSaucy: calls 150
GJRPoker: raises 150 to 300
LV_Jamoke: folds
Jalin218: folds
milosh68: folds
FlyingSaucy: calls 150
*** FLOP *** [3s 5s Ts]
FlyingSaucy: bets 400
GJRPoker: calls 400
*** TURN *** [3s 5s Ts] [7c]
FlyingSaucy: bets 1170 and is all-in
GJRPoker: calls 1170
*** RIVER *** [3s 5s Ts 7c] [9s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
FlyingSaucy: shows [Th Tc] (three of a kind, Tens)
GJRPoker: shows

[Rockymv]

#1: push

#2: i fold preflop. flop is close, i might push, if opp. sucks he's probably checking the queen, but also if opp. sucks it's hard to tell where you are.

#3: raise preflop. as played, bet 3/4 pot or more on flop, turn is fine.

[FlyingSaucy]

#1. Really? A lead out bet, I raise, LP reraises, SB cold calls the two raises.... and I push here? I know I played this one wrong in retrospect. But a push is hard for me to see here. Esp with blinds only at 25/50

#2. Yea, AT on the button with limpers ahead of you - this is definitely a situation I'd fold previously, that's the point of my post- is it too loose to be raising with this when the going rate at these sngs is to raise limpers with J8o?

#3 My prob with raising preflop is that I'll only get callers in LP, and more than 50% of the time there will be overs to fear on the flop and I'm oop. So, check and fold the flop. I'm starting to play TT like any mid/low pp because people don't lay down KJ, AJ, AT, etc preflop to raises.

[Rockymv]

#1. Really? A lead out bet, I raise, LP reraises, SB cold calls the two raises.... and I push here? I know I played this one wrong in retrospect. But a push is hard for me to see here. Esp with blinds only at 25/50

#2. Yea, AT on the button with limpers ahead of you - this is definitely a situation I'd fold previously, that's the point of my post- is it too loose to be raising with this when the going rate at these sngs is to raise limpers with J8o?

#3 My prob with raising preflop is that I'll only get callers in LP, and more than 50% of the time there will be overs to fear on the flop and I'm oop. So, check and fold the flop. I'm starting to play TT like any mid/low pp because people don't lay down KJ, AJ, AT, etc preflop to raises.

#1 If the tourney's as loose as you suggest, you just can't put someone on a set. Top pair and flush draws are likely holdings. Of course you can find a fold here at a table of rocks, but that's not how you described this tournament.

#3 I don't think you have enough chips to limp medium pp's there. I fold or raise. For a second I thought about pushing preflop, but you have too many chips.

[swiggidy]

#2. Yea, AT on the button with limpers ahead of you - this is definitely a situation I'd fold previously, that's the point of my post- is it too loose to be raising with this when the going rate at these sngs is to raise limpers with J8o?

I don't think this is terrible, but raise to more than 3x with 2 limpers in front. Raise to 500, then you might only have 1 caller, or might even take it down.

[donkbee]

The $5.50 45 man SnGs on Stars are soo easy once you adapt to the bad play. You're right, the play is super loose (at the start). Lots of people are willing to gamble early and get big stacks or bust. Let them play into your great hands. If someone raises you and you have a monster, push. You will almost ALWAYS get called by anyone with top pair any kicker. And I'm sure you know that you shouldn't ever ever ever try to bluff someone early, they'll never fold

Hand #1 is definitely a push, people will call you with a pair of nines, believe me. Hand #2, I also fold preflop. swiggidy is right though, if you're gonna raise, raise a lot more. I would limp before I would raise though. Hand #3 is worth a raise preflop, there's a nice chance of taking it down without seeing a flop. Players in these tend to tighten up once the blinds get big, hopefully you can steal lots of blinds.

I think that playing tight will win these things for you, I play them tight. Just drop the hammer when you have great hands, you almost always get paid off. One thing that's true for these, though, is that you will get reraised preflop with crap like A8s. If you have AQo in mid position and you raise it up and get reraised, I wouldn't automatically lay it down ... In any other SnG I would, but if it's early and if it's in a $5.50, then it's not an autofold by any means. These idiots raise with KJo, A3s, QJ ... you name it, they raise it ...

[Staresy]

Hand #1 is definitely a push, people will call you with a pair of nines, believe me.

not to mention A4 as well.

I think that playing tight will win these things for you, I play them tight. Just drop the hammer when you have great hands, you almost always get paid off. One thing that's true for these, though, is that you will get reraised preflop with crap like A8s. If you have AQo in mid position and you raise it up and get reraised, I wouldn't automatically lay it down ... In any other SnG I would, but if it's early and if it's in a $5.50, then it's not an autofold by any means. These idiots raise with KJo, A3s, QJ ... you name it, they raise it ...

amen. This just about sums these $5 multi-table SnG's up nicely. Oh, and they have no qualms about raising UTG, getting re-raised and having someone else call, then deciding their 66 is the best hand and pushing.

[FlyingSaucy]

Thanks for the comments everyone.

#2 The point about raising more than 3xBB when there are limpers already in is well taken. So, my options at that point are: raise 5xBB, limp, or fold. I think raising 5x in that spot with my chip size pretty much gets me pot committed on the flop if I get a caller, and AT is not the kind of hand you want to be going to a flop with and playing it risky if you are checked to. In retrospect I do agree that folding is the best option.

#1 To get results oriented... the guy in LP did end up flopping a set, and the guy in SB had 94. That's what's hard to me, the tourneys in general are super laggy, but maybe 25% of the players are at least not total donkeys. I can't pick out the legit play from the crappy "Oh I got Q9 and flopped a pair of 9's.... I'm gonna PUSH!!!" kind of play. There are sooooooo many laggs here it makes my head spin and I can't determine when someone's being a lagg and when they flopped a set.

courtiebee - thanks for the advice on sticking to tight and playing your strong hands strong. I almost forgot how straight forward it is playing against a fish. Relatively speaking, where I am coming from - UB single table sngs, these stars $5.50s are totally unpredictable and like navigating a mine field.

[donkbee]

#1 To get results oriented... the guy in LP did end up flopping a set, and the guy in SB had 94. That's what's hard to me, the tourneys in general are super laggy, but maybe 25% of the players are at least not total donkeys. I can't pick out the legit play from the crappy "Oh I got Q9 and flopped a pair of 9's.... I'm gonna PUSH!!!" kind of play. There are sooooooo many laggs here it makes my head spin and I can't determine when someone's being a lagg and when they flopped a set.

Heh, I thought that might be why you were asking about it, I knew you had been beat by some luck box. And you're right, some of them aren't total donkeys (I play them every so often ). You're right though, it's almost impossible to pick out the legit plays from the fish plays. Maybe it's bad, but I just assume from the start that they're fish until they prove me otherwise. Early in the tourney, I'm willing to make this assumption (at the slight risk of being wrong and busting early). It's not to say I'm playing bad poker with this assumption in mind, it just (hopefully) prevents me from laying down the best hand when he overvalues something mediocre. Almost every single one of them overvalues TP any kicker, make your money off these people.

Out of curiousity though, why are you playing the $5.50s? If you want to play the 45 man SnGs, the $11s are slightly more sane.

Haha Staresy, courtiebwnage all the way

[Scuba Chuck]

I haven't read any of the responses yet.

Hand 1: I shove. The only hand you're super worried about is 99, which is so incredibly unlikely (as well as 22). I think the reraise is A9 or TT+ by the limper more often than a set of 3s. So, what I'm saying is that there are 30 ways to make TT+, 9 ways to make A9, and only 5 ways to make 22/99/33. Furthermore, if the reraiser is a thinking player (like me), I would push my KQ of clubs (which would actually turn out to be a mistake in this case because your pot equity is stronger than my estimate - unless you folded this hand of course.). But he just reraised, which makes me think he has an overpair, A9, or a set perhaps. Anyway, even with the potential draws out there, that makes this a pretty easy hand, particularly with all the deadchips in the pot now.

Hand 2: Fold.

Hand 3: Raise preflop. The way you played it, with more than half your stack in the middle, I shove on the flop. The way he played it, I'm assuming he flopped the flush? If so, that happens. You're not folding a set at this stage of the game just because it's a HU hand, and the flop is monotone.

[konahead]

hand 1 - push
hand 2 - if you're gonna raise it, raise it 4-5xbb. I fold here.
hand 3 - push flop - or if you think opp will bet, do check-push

I personally play the opposite of my opps so if everyone is playing loose, I tighten up... but there is a case to be made for trying to get the fish's chips before someone else does.... but I too am unclear how much is too loose...

[Scuba Chuck]

#1. Really? A lead out bet, I raise, LP reraises, SB cold calls the two raises.... and I push here? I know I played this one wrong in retrospect. But a push is hard for me to see here. Esp with blinds only at 25/50

What the hell are you worried about? Most of the cards you're worried about are in your hand. And with regards to the blinds, again, what is on your mind? All you should be worried about when moving forward is how big the pot is, and how strong is your pot equity? And if you lose this hand, so be it, another sng is right around the corner. It's a tremendous mistake to not risk all your chips on this hand, especially at this point.

Edit: I should add, you would need a read to not move forward. And it's so hard to have a read on low buyins.

[FlyingSaucy]

Out of curiousity though, why are you playing the $5.50s? If you want to play the 45 man SnGs, the $11s are slightly more sane.

My roll is only ~$700. I figure with 45 players, 2 x 45 x $5.50 = $495 roll is needed. At least, that's my formula for small mtts. So maybe the $10+1 27's are for me... 2 x 27 x $11 = $594, which I am also rolled for, but not the 45 player games at $10+$1.

What the hell are you worried about?

Precisely, a set. LP's betting was demonstrating glee at the fact that he had opponents willing to call big raises. If I played a BB special two pair like this in a UB $20+2 sng, I would get burned time and time again.

EDIT: but your point is well taken that I am playing in a stars $5 sng. So the mantra has become guilty of being a fish until proven innocent.

[Scuba Chuck]

What the hell are you worried about?

Precisely, a set. LP's betting was demonstrating glee at the fact that he had opponents willing to call big raises. If I played a BB special two pair like this in a UB $20+2 sng, I would get burned time and time again.

If I played this way on the Party Poker $55s, I would have quite the profit. As I stated, w/o a read (and this happens sometimes), there is just far far too many hands for you to be up against. In that hand range is a set, and you're behind. But that's the whole point of putting out hand ranges, so that you can figure out if on average, your play is profitable. You don't get to win every hand, even if your math is correct.

I think I hear you saying that in this situation, you are only up against a set. The problem with comparing this situation (that is we're comparing the action of a bet, raise, and a reraise) to other situations with similar action is that you need to discount the action a bit due to the fact that it's coming from the blinds. Had all this action occurred from just limpers, I'd feel more compelled to have some concern. My point is, whatever experience you have or have had, assuming that you are always up against a set here is likely going to cost you chips.