Reassurance

[fasin8ing]

Is this ok ?


Game #1321305783 (Level II, Game #2) - 10/20 No Limit Texas Hold'em - 2006/03/01-22:03:24.2 (CST)
Table "Lewini (5 max)" ($5 tournament) -- Seat 3 is the button
Seat 1: UPS Guy (1,020.00 in chips)
Seat 2: fasin8ning (1,100.00 in chips)
Seat 3: dukebd31 (850.00 in chips)
Seat 4: ovilla77 (1,133.00 in chips)
Seat 5: minnesodakid (897.00 in chips)
ovilla77: Post Small Blind (10)
minnesodakid: Post Big Blind (20)
Dealing...
Dealt to fasin8ning [ 8s ]
Dealt to fasin8ning [ 8d ]
dukebd31 said, "river killed me again"
UPS Guy : Fold
fasin8ning: Raise (65)
dukebd31: Call (65)
ovilla77: Fold
minnesodakid: Fold
*** FLOP *** : [ Ac 8c Jc ]
fasin8ning: Bet (1,035) all in .

[mcatdog]

It's not OK at all. The only hands that are going to call you are flushes, AA, JJ, maybe some 2-pair hands. If you make a normal bet, you might still lose all your chips if he has a flush or AA or JJ, but at least you might make some money from worse hands like flush draws, or hands like AT or A9, that would fold if you just go all-in.

[journey075]

rofl what the hell?

[Scuba Chuck]

Is this ok ?

What compelled you to make that bet? You have a very very strong hand here, and the board is a little scary, and the pot small. Why not build the pot a little? There is so little reward here on average, and this is a great hand to induce a semi-bluff on the flop, and then begin to exert pressure on the turn.

[fasin8ing]

It's not OK at all. The only hands that are going to call you are flushes, AA, JJ, maybe some 2-pair hands. If you make a normal bet, you might still lose all your chips if he has a flush or AA or JJ, but at least you might make some money from worse hands like flush draws, or hands like AT or A9, that would fold if you just go all-in.

Mcat .. There are only two of us... I dont want a call.. It would be nice.. But I dont think its going to happen.
I would hope so. OK so the odds of anyone hitting a flush on the flop is ??? And your not pushing a set of eights here? What are you betting??? Does it matter what you bet.. Any random 5 dollar player gives two shits about odds.. So you lead out with what 1/2 pot size bet? You check ? Club on the turn .. Then what do we do ???

Also -
In ref to post ... bet your set.
fasin8ing wrote:
Out of all the stuff I have learned on FTR, this is the most profitable. Bet , someone raises .. You push . Huge payoff. I used to play sets slower.. Now this is standard play for me. Unless the flop is suited.

Quote ROCKY -
all the more reason to bet if the flop is suited.

You all are the most confusing people to learn from .. Why doesnt everyone have the same standard? Check the post Bet your Set.

[Scuba Chuck]

You check ? Club on the turn .. Then what do we do ???

What do you think?

[fasin8ing]

You check ? Club on the turn .. Then what do we do ???

What do you think?

Uhh I fold..

How about going all in .. not letting him see the turn? I admit.. This hand is way strong.. Profitable, maybe Iam just not there yet. The most profit I want out of a flop like that is him to lay it down to me going all in representing a flush . 2 people are in the hand.. what is the problem here. I could probably make a better play with more people in the hand, I would stick it out through the turn and river with no clubs on the turn or river. I could present to them wrong odds for calling, inducing mistakes.. But with two people.. I dont know man .. Like I said .. maybe Iam not there yet.. Teach me something Scuba Chuck -

Journey .. thanks for laughing .. I would talk shit ... But I heard you lost your house and all.. So I will shut the f&*^% up and give you respect.. I doubt you are in the right mindframe to give any advice.. So thanks again .

[mcatdog]

It's not OK at all. The only hands that are going to call you are flushes, AA, JJ, maybe some 2-pair hands. If you make a normal bet, you might still lose all your chips if he has a flush or AA or JJ, but at least you might make some money from worse hands like flush draws, or hands like AT or A9, that would fold if you just go all-in.

Where did I say that you should check? Of course you should bet your set, just don't go all-in. Make a 3/4 pot sized bet or maybe a full pot sized bet. If he has a club, he would be making a mistake by calling that bet, which is good for you.

[Scuba Chuck]

You check ? Club on the turn .. Then what do we do ???

What do you think?

Uhh I fold..

How about going all in .. not letting him see the turn?

You have a very very strong hand here, and the board is a little scary, and the pot small.

I should add something very basic. Decide for yourself if this describes you, but you seem to think you have to have this pot. This pot is insignificant in your ability to take money in this tourney, unless you make it so. Do you think you have to have this pot at all costs? When do you learn to let hands go?

[fasin8ing]

It's not OK at all. The only hands that are going to call you are flushes, AA, JJ, maybe some 2-pair hands. If you make a normal bet, you might still lose all your chips if he has a flush or AA or JJ, but at least you might make some money from worse hands like flush draws, or hands like AT or A9, that would fold if you just go all-in.

Where did I say that you should check? Of course you should bet your set, just don't go all-in. Make a 3/4 pot sized bet or maybe a full pot sized bet. If he has a club, he would be making a mistake by calling that bet, which is good for you.

Ok mcat.. so the right thing to do is pray for no club , a club hits the turn, I check ... He bets .... then what????

[mcatdog]

It's not OK at all. The only hands that are going to call you are flushes, AA, JJ, maybe some 2-pair hands. If you make a normal bet, you might still lose all your chips if he has a flush or AA or JJ, but at least you might make some money from worse hands like flush draws, or hands like AT or A9, that would fold if you just go all-in.

Where did I say that you should check? Of course you should bet your set, just don't go all-in. Make a 3/4 pot sized bet or maybe a full pot sized bet. If he has a club, he would be making a mistake by calling that bet, which is good for you.

Ok mcat.. so the right thing to do is pray for no club , a club hits the turn, I check ... He bets .... then what????

Then you fold unless his bet is small enough that you're getting good odds to draw to the full house. Most of the time, the turn won't be a club, and you'll have just made money off him.

[Warpe]

Bet it but don't overbet it. You WANT flush draw to call with bad odds, but ridiculously bad odds gets a fold.

[bluey]

Journey .. thanks for laughing .. I would talk shit ... But I heard you lost your house and all.. So I will shut the f&*^% up and give you respect.. I doubt you are in the right mindframe to give any advice.. So thanks again .

haha


Theres another thread where I asked a similar quesion here http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=29820 . Basicly make a good bet on the flop, no need for a push.

[Renton]

c bet this for the pot to make drawing odds bad, and don't go to the felt unless you fill up. The all in here would be a great idea if the pot were bigger, because you'd essentially be on a semi bluff. You have 30% to fill up by the river, and there's a significant percentage that smaller flushes or drawing hands fold then its a profitable play.

But since the pot is so small, then no one has any emotional attachment to this hand, so you really should just play it for the boat and thats all she wrote. (rhyme hehe)

[fasin8ing]

[

You have a very very strong hand here, and the board is a little scary, and the pot small.

I should add something very basic. Decide for yourself if this describes you, but you seem to think you have to have this pot. This pot is insignificant in your ability to take money in this tourney, unless you make it so. Do you think you have to have this pot at all costs? When do you learn to let hands go?

Chuck thanks.. I understand what you are saying. The pot isnt worth all my stack. So i should have play the hand more accordingly, and built it up more . And if the other club came , and I came across aggression .. I would let it go . Very hard to lay down for me. I read bet your set all day today .. Why did Rocky go in??? Please explain that .. and I will sleep happy tonight.

[Rockymv]

Quote ROCKY -
all the more reason to bet if the flop is suited.

i said bet. not push for 10x the pot.

[Rockymv]

also, though i'm deeply honored, you probably shouldn't quote me as evidence in an argument.

[fasin8ing]

Quote ROCKY -
all the more reason to bet if the flop is suited.

i said bet. not push for 10x the pot.

Why did you push your sets on a flush flop in your last posts.. Not bet your set .. Set on a three flush flop? What is so different on my play than yours?

To Everyone: My point is this : If i check my hand .. which i would never do .. and he bets.. where does that leave me? If I bet my hand , and he calls ... and the club comes on the turn or the river.. That leaves me with no options and decisions to be made. I didnt have the largest stack at the table or else I would have bet a pot size bet, then a put him all in on the turn. This is a two person hand. He could have called with anything and whats the odds of him calling a raise 3 1/2 times the blinds with something suited?

[Scuba Chuck]

[

You have a very very strong hand here, and the board is a little scary, and the pot small.

I should add something very basic. Decide for yourself if this describes you, but you seem to think you have to have this pot. This pot is insignificant in your ability to take money in this tourney, unless you make it so. Do you think you have to have this pot at all costs? When do you learn to let hands go?

Chuck thanks.. I understand what you are saying. The pot isnt worth all my stack. So i should have play the hand more accordingly, and built it up more . And if the other club came , and I came across aggression .. I would let it go . Very hard to lay down for me. I read bet your set all day today .. Why did Rocky go in??? Please explain that .. and I will sleep happy tonight.

First of all, Rocky is a stubborn philosopher. So take that with a grain of salt.

Second of all, he built a 175 chip pot into a 875 chip pot before moving in. As compared to your move, which was push into a small pot.

I read bet your set all day today

On more than average occasions, this is good general advice. There are plenty of reasons not to go to the felt with a set tho, and perhaps even fold with an under set on the flop (not talking about this situation). Anyhow, most of the advice on this forum comes from low buyin and less experienced players. And there's nothing wrong with that, although their tends to be too much patting on the back in certain circumstances.

Very hard to lay down for me.

Could you lay down if you could see his cards?

[spoonitnow]

Any random 5 dollar player gives two shits about odds...

Just making sure, but you do realize this is a good thing?

[fasin8ing]

[

You have a very very strong hand here, and the board is a little scary, and the pot small.

I should add something very basic. Decide for yourself if this describes you, but you seem to think you have to have this pot. This pot is insignificant in your ability to take money in this tourney, unless you make it so. Do you think you have to have this pot at all costs? When do you learn to let hands go?

Chuck thanks.. I understand what you are saying. The pot isnt worth all my stack. So i should have play the hand more accordingly, and built it up more . And if the other club came , and I came across aggression .. I would let it go . Very hard to lay down for me. I read bet your set all day today .. Why did Rocky go in??? Please explain that .. and I will sleep happy tonight.

First of all, Rocky is a stubborn philosopher. So take that with a grain of salt.

Second of all, he built a 175 chip pot into a 875 chip pot before moving in. As compared to your move, which was push into a small pot.

I read bet your set all day today

On more than average occasions, this is good general advice. There are plenty of reasons not to go to the felt with a set tho, and perhaps even fold with an under set on the flop (not talking about this situation). Anyhow, most of the advice on this forum comes from low buyin and less experienced players. And there's nothing wrong with that, although their tends to be too much patting on the back in certain circumstances.

Very hard to lay down for me.

Could you lay down if you could see his cards?

If I saw one club I would toss them into the dealers chip tray .

[Rockymv]

Quote ROCKY -
all the more reason to bet if the flop is suited.

i said bet. not push for 10x the pot.

Why did you push your sets on a flush flop in your last posts.. Not bet your set .. Set on a three flush flop? What is so different on my play than yours?

To Everyone: My point is this : If i check my hand .. which i would never do .. and he bets.. where does that leave me? If I bet my hand , and he calls ... and the club comes on the turn or the river.. That leaves me with no options and decisions to be made. I didnt have the largest stack at the table or else I would have bet a pot size bet, then a put him all in on the turn. This is a two person hand. He could have called with anything and whats the odds of him calling a raise 3 1/2 times the blinds with something suited?

As Chuck and others have said, if you push for 10x pot, only a higher set or made flush calls you (maybe 2 pair if you're lucky). if you bet the pot, you'll get calls and raises from from flush draws and TP, which you want. If you bet the pot on this flop and got a call, and the turn did not complete the flush, then you can push the turn.

[Scuba Chuck]

To Everyone: My point is this : If i check my hand .. which i would never do

Dude, it's just you and one other guy. I think checking here is optimal.

[Darby]

I probably bet the pot on the flop or slightly under and push a non club turn...

[aleksandr]

Harrington has something on this in his book. He says that if you push QQ every time you hold it UTG for $100 into $1-2 blinds, your play is -EV because everyone is always going to fold unless they hold AA or KK, and the chance that they hold AA or KK is reasonable with so many players left to act. Your oppenent could hold JJ, AA, KcQc, 1 club and a straight draw, AK and the flush draw, and all these hands are calling you, you're only slightly better than 50% against many of them.

Trips can take another card. Bet the pot and see what happens, but overbetting significantly here is -EV because any hand that calls beats you.

Edit: Harrington noted that it was something like -$44 EV.

[LordoftheIsles]

Is this ok ?

[snip]

fasin8ning: Bet (1,035) all in .

As others have said, no. With one caveat: this is Level 2 and if you have been playing thus far in the SNG like a maniac, with lots of raises and overbets of the pot, then the all-in becomes more attractive. The rest of the table will be desperate to take your chips off you and you'll get calls from most Aces and two pair hands. They might well put you on one high club or just a complete bluff.

Not that I think it's a good bet but it becomes a little better under those circumstances. Of course, you won't have been playing that way so it's hypothetical, right?

[journey075]

Journey .. thanks for laughing .. I would talk shit ... But I heard you lost your house and all.. So I will shut the f&*^% up and give you respect.. I doubt you are in the right mindframe to give any advice.. So thanks again .

hahahhahahahahhahah sig'd

[boost]

you keep saying "what if a club comes?" .. shut up with that... a club comes 1/3 of the time, if you bet the pot and get called then you win 2 chips for every 1 invested 66% of the time. How does this not sound good to you?

Its been explained why pushing is bad, so please dont defend it anymore, its -ev. It has also been explained why betting the pot or close to it is a good move, so why are you so resistant to this.

Also your idea that since its only 1 other guy you want the pot to end is completely ass backwards. The more people in the hand the more chance that someone does have the draw. Therefore the more reason to end the hand here and now. But with 1 person your chances against him are so much better, you almost always have the best hand on this flop, and as pointed out before, when hes on the draw you still have the best hand 66% of the time on the turn.

You need to maximize your winnigns when you win and minimize your loses when you lose. Youve done the complete opposite here, You cant possibly hope to win more then the pot here when you win, and when you lose here, well youve obviously maximized your loses.

[fasin8ing]

you keep saying "what if a club comes?" .. shut up with that... a club comes 1/3 of the time, if you bet the pot and get called then you win 2 chips for every 1 invested 66% of the time. How does this not sound good to you?

Its been explained why pushing is bad, so please dont defend it anymore, its -ev. It has also been explained why betting the pot or close to it is a good move, so why are you so resistant to this.

Also your idea that since its only 1 other guy you want the pot to end is completely ass backwards. The more people in the hand the more chance that someone does have the draw. Therefore the more reason to end the hand here and now. But with 1 person your chances against him are so much better, you almost always have the best hand on this flop, and as pointed out before, when hes on the draw you still have the best hand 66% of the time on the turn.

You need to maximize your winnigns when you win and minimize your loses when you lose. Youve done the complete opposite here, You cant possibly hope to win more then the pot here when you win, and when you lose here, well youve obviously maximized your loses.

Point taken. I should have got my money in there.. Just not all of it. I understand .. Thanks

[fasin8ing]

also, though i'm deeply honored, you probably shouldn't quote me as evidence in an argument.

Your honor.. I request at this time all evidence relevant to Rockymv be withdrawn.

Who said we were arguing? lol .. Thanks Rocky.. I admit your hand was way different than mine. I was not looking at things like boot and chuck explained.. Guys I got it. Next HH I post will prove I grasp the concept. Thanks again for all you alls help ..

[boost]

yah sorry if I was harsh buddy... but its like with a woman... sometimes they are all hysterical and shit, and the only way to snap em out of it is to shake th shit outta them. Sure it might be extreme, but I cant say that I dont enjoy it.

[GixMage]

- Pot sized bet on the flop
- Turn
a) if a club comes off, keep the pot small, try to fill up on the river, fold to large bet
b) no club, push or large bet
c) you fill up, make the same bet as on the flop (milking for money)
- River: should have been taken care of by flop + turn

My 2 cents - -=Gix=-

[Scuba Chuck]

Ok, fine, I'll pose the question.

What's the difference between betting the flop and checking the flop in this situation?

[fasin8ing]

Ok, fine, I'll pose the question.

What's the difference between betting the flop and checking the flop in this situation?

Checking is a mistake on my part. Betting and him calling with the wrong odds is a mistake on his part.

[Scuba Chuck]

Ok, fine, I'll pose the question.

What's the difference between betting the flop and checking the flop in this situation?

Checking is a mistake on my part.

This is not a truth.

Edit: I should add, "in NL."

[fasin8ing]

Ok, fine, I'll pose the question.

What's the difference between betting the flop and checking the flop in this situation?

Checking is a mistake on my part.

This is not a truth.

Edit: I should add, "in NL."

Are you saying checking the flop is what should have been done?
A. It would have been a cheap probe bet, if he checked behind me.
B. I could trap him into thinking hes ahead.. However; I would be lost in the hand if another club came.
C. Check for a free card to pair for a boat????????????? And then hope he catches his flush ?

[Scuba Chuck]

Are you saying checking the flop is what should have been done?
A. It would have been a cheap probe bet, if he checked behind me.
B. I could trap him into thinking hes ahead.. However; I would be lost in the hand if another club came.
C. Check for a free card to pair for a boat????????????? And then hope he catches his flush ?

I am saying that it's not a mistake to check here. As for why, you're going to have to think more.

[pgil]

betting does take away the chance for your opponent to represent the flush/flush draw, which he may not have. check calling, which almost seems wrong, could be an excellent way to get all of this guys chips on the turn if he has any pair and thinks you are on a flush draw. the turn isnt a club, you open push the turn/CR all in and he calls thinking you are semibluffing a draw.

[fasin8ing]

Are you saying checking the flop is what should have been done?
A. It would have been a cheap probe bet, if he checked behind me.
B. I could trap him into thinking hes ahead.. However; I would be lost in the hand if another club came.
C. Check for a free card to pair for a boat????????????? And then hope he catches his flush ?

I am saying that it's not a mistake to check here. As for why, you're going to have to think more.

If I check and he checks behind me .. It tells me he probably hasnt made his flush yet... Or he doesnt have shit and the flop missed him.

[journey075]

it allows him to bluff at the pot with a draw or come out strong with a weaker hand. its a good line against many opponenets on a board this scary.

[fasin8ing]

it allows him to bluff at the pot with a draw or come out strong with a weaker hand. its a good line against many opponenets on a board this scary.

Ok , so If I check and he bets... giving himself the correct odds to make his flush .. What have I achieved? Or are you suggesting I raise his bet to give him improper odds?

[pgil]

you are assuming he MUST have the flush draw. this is a 5$ tourney, so what does he call with pf? Ax, Axs, xxs, Kx, Qx, etc. if he called with two suited cards, which seems to be all that people do these days, then he either has the flush, or has no shot at the flush. if he has Ax he wont call your push, but he will more likely bet into you with his TP no club, thinking you are on the draw, and attempt to give you bad odds in the process. Also, you have the opportunity to allow him to define his hand a little bit more for you by allowing him to act.

[Scuba Chuck]

you are assuming he MUST have the flush draw. this is a 5$ tourney, so what does he call with pf? Ax, Axs, xxs, Kx, Qx, etc. if he called with any two cards, which seems to be all that people do these days, then he either has the flush, or has no shot at the flush. if he has Ax he wont call your push, but he will more likely bet into you with his TP no club, thinking you are on the draw, and attempt to give you bad odds in the process. Also, you have the opportunity to allow him to define his hand a little bit more for you by allowing him to act.

FYP

[fasin8ing]

you are assuming he MUST have the flush draw. this is a 5$ tourney, so what does he call with pf? Ax, Axs, xxs, Kx, Qx, etc. if he called with two suited cards, which seems to be all that people do these days, then he either has the flush, or has no shot at the flush. if he has Ax he wont call your push, but he will more likely bet into you with his TP no club, thinking you are on the draw, and attempt to give you bad odds in the process. Also, you have the opportunity to allow him to define his hand a little bit more for you by allowing him to act.

I am assuming everything. I believe he may have one club. I believe I dicked this hand up because he could have believed I had one club too.

Chuck, I should have checked the flop. He could have thrown out a bet. I could have called. Checked the turn, he throws out another bet .. I call.. Bet the river... if no more clubs came .. or called him on the river and payed him for flopping a flush .. within reason..

[Scuba Chuck]

Chuck, I should have checked the flop.

That is also not the "right" answer. Checking nor betting is the answer. It's all in how you play the hand. I was only trying to say that neither checking or betting here is wrong. Only open folding would be wrong here. There's plenty for us to discuss as to whether checking or betting here accumulates more chips for us. That being said, I think open pushing is the second worst thing behind open folding.

Let me be specific, so I can kill this thread (for me at least). This hand plays a little different OOP, and this is not the line I would take if I had position.

For me I would check.

Line 1:
If villain checks behind, and the turn is a club, I would only check/call a bet if I had decent odds and implied odds to hit my boat. If villain checks behind on a turned club, I would value bet my set on the river, and fold to a reraise. In this spot, after the turn is a club, I really want to keep this pot small.

Line 2:
If villain pots it behind me, I would call. There is probably plenty here who would say they would check-raise, and their line is fine. But a hand that's bluffing is not going to call a check raise, and perhaps, even a pair of aces may not call a check-raise, so you limit the hands that call. If the turn is a club, I start thinking about odds to hit my boat. If the turn is a non-club, I check again, and let him hang himself because more often than not, he thinks I'm on the FD.

[Rockymv]

also, though i'm deeply honored, you probably shouldn't quote me as evidence in an argument.

Your honor.. I request at this time all evidence relevant to Rockymv be withdrawn.

Who said we were arguing? lol .. Thanks Rocky.. I admit your hand was way different than mine. I was not looking at things like boot and chuck explained.. Guys I got it. Next HH I post will prove I grasp the concept. Thanks again for all you alls help ..

It's just an illegitimate appeal to authority. Someone like ilikeaces is worth quoting as evidence.

[pgil]

scuba, in line 2, would a weak lead on a non club turn be more likely to lead to a reraise AI, or would it just kill action from a bluffer?? thoughts?
i ask because my first instinct would be to make the weak lead, just looking for feedback.

[Scuba Chuck]

scuba, in line 2, would a weak lead on a non club turn be more likely to lead to a reraise AI, or would it just kill action from a bluffer?? thoughts?
i ask because my first instinct would be to make the weak lead, just looking for feedback.

I don't think there is one answer. Certainly a weak lead has its negatives. A weak lead is completely shutting down a complete bluff, and it is absolutely giving a FD odds. But it could induce a hand like Ax to reraise AI ( or a weak Flush of course). Because at this point, all we have done is call a flop bet, our opponents hand range is still wide. Certainly some hands (and certainly some aggro players) could reraise AI here, like AxKc. IME, checking here increases the hand range of players who will fire back at me on the turn. Furthermore, our opponents most likely bet on the turn is a push(assuming he bets at all). Anything less I would begin to significantly narrow down his hand range and think about. If he pushes, it's an insta-call for me.

[konahead]

I'd bet the pot on the flop and 1.5x pot the turn (assuming no club comes). Get some chips while making a fishy high club pay for the ride....

[Scuba Chuck]

I'd bet the pot on the flop and 1.5x pot the turn (assuming no club comes). Get some chips while making a fishy high club pay for the ride....

OK Kona, I think your line is very standard. What are the negatives to your line?

[konahead]

The negatives are:

1 - the pot is getting huge and I still don't know if opp has the flush if he's still calling my bets - and he'll probably fold if he doesn't have the flush...
2 - if I don't hit my boat, which is likely, he can probably still push me off the hand with a big reraise at some point.

so I win a small pot and lose a big one...

Obviously, the problem I have is if I check the flop, I'm giving a free card to a flush draw. If I check the flop and no club comes, will opp believe I have the flush? Or if opp bets non-club turn, does he have the flush? - cuz I'd check that flop with a high flush... It's very hard to know where you stand in these types of situations, and finding out can get very expensive.

I normally play against one preflop opp as if he doesn't have the flush since the odds of him flopping a flush are slim. BUT I assume he has at least one of the suit (and I have none) so I try to really make him pay to draw to it. Not that it's the best line, but it's a zone I'm comfortable in...

That's why I play at the $11/$22 level... but I'm here to learn a better way

[Scuba Chuck]

so I win a small pot and lose a big one...

If that's the general result of your line, then I would find a new line.

[konahead]

I think that would be the general result at higher limits, but it works well at the limits that I play.

But if I want to play the higher limits with you I need to understand what a player at your level would do - which seems to be check oop and bet if in position... I'll have to think about that....

[Jimmy Mac]

I am assuming everything. I believe he may have one club. I believe I dicked this hand up because he could have believed I had one club too.

This thread is really making me laugh for some reason. Must have smoked too much......

[fasin8ing]

I am assuming everything. I believe he may have one club. I believe I dicked this hand up because he could have believed I had one club too.

This thread is really making me laugh for some reason. Must have smoked too much......

No dude you didnt... It really is funny .

[bata_mija]

interesting discussion... many points good stated... yet, i think that the best approach to this hand is through analyzing the opponent and then making the decision. So?

If he has two clubs, he'll call your all-in bet, or try to trap you.
What if he has just one club? He'll probably fold to a 50% to pot sized bet with 2-9c but will call, with Tc,Qc,Kc. He can also probably call if he paired his other card. He most probably doesnt have AA, KK, QQ, JJ, or even AK, AQ, so the hands he would stay in the pot with could be KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, QT, but since this is a 5$ sit&go he could really stay in with any two cards.
Now let's see how the odds work in your advantage.
If he has only one club, then he has (from your perspective) 9 outs, or in other words you have 36 outs, which makes a pot sized bet correct play.
Maybe he has nothing so he'll fold anyway.
But, if he decides to call and a club comes on the turn, what are your outs then ?
3 Aces, 3 Jacks, 1 Eight, 3 turn cards => 10 outs (at best). He may have one of you're outs but not two. So you have at least 9 outs.

So in this situation i would try to do the following :>
1. win the pot on the spot with a pot sized bet.
2. fold to immediate agression.
3. if he decides to call i would try to keep him off a push and
a. win a 300-400 pot with a set.
b. get his whole stack if i catch the full-house
c. loose 200-300 and still have enough to crush him on a later hand.

I personally think, that you can keep him off a push if he aint got Kc, or two small clubs. Yet maybe i would do something different based on the reads i get of him. (He is the short-stack, right?)...Should i add that im an agressive player...
Anyhow this is just my line of thoughts. Any hints for improving it? Thanx In Advance.

[bata_mija]

on a second thought, i'm not sure my thoughts hold up on 5$ levels...

[fasin8ing]

on a second thought, i'm not sure my thoughts hold up on 5$ levels...

I play five level too. Read Scuba.. My turn.. Monotone flop.

[Scuba Chuck]

So in this situation i would try to do the following :>
1. win the pot on the spot with a pot sized bet.
2. fold to immediate agression.
3. if he decides to call i would try to keep him off a push and
a. win a 300-400 pot with a set.
b. get his whole stack if i catch the full-house
c. loose 200-300 and still have enough to crush him on a later hand.

I think we can critique your analysis right from here. And frankly, most of people's thought process goes astray with #1. Why is it so important to win the pot right now? It's tiny. In the style that I play, I want to win big pots, I don't care to win little pots.

If you understand WA/WB thought process, this is a great situation to apply it. What matters most is how can we "read" when our opponent is hanging himself, AND, can we get him to hang himself a good percentage of the time (read: we will make mistakes).

[bata_mija]

actually it's the style of play that dictates what pots you contest to win. every style has its drawbacks.