Check my Line here

[GatorJH]

Neither player was ultra tight or loose. Was the raise on the flop OK? I figured it would buy me a free/cheap card on the turn. Call on the river (instead of a raise) seems mandatory although I can't see the SB calling the flop with 5x.


Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t25/t50
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t1330
UTG+1: t1340
Hero: t4635
Button: t2455
SB: t1380
BB: t2360

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with Q J
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t50, Hero calls t50, Button folds, SB calls t25, BB checks.

Flop: 5 9 T (t200, 4 players)
SB bets t50, BB folds, UTG+1 calls t50, Hero raises to t200, SB calls t150, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: 5 (t650, 2 players)
SB bets t50, Hero calls t50.

River: J (t750, 2 players)
SB bets t150, Hero calls t150.

[Scuba Chuck]

I like your intended line on all streets. I'm curious, how do you feel about your raise to 200 on the flop? I think your objective on the flop raise is two fold. 1 - win the pot now, 2 - buy a free river card. Given that you raised to 200, when the pot is 300, and SB is getting 2:1 odds to call (and if he calls, UTG+1 is getting 3:1), do you think this is an optimal line? I don't have the best answer here, but when you look at the remaining chip stacks of SB and UTG+1, do we feel fishy about shoving here (on the flop)?

[GatorJH]

I like your intended line on all streets. I'm curious, how do you feel about your raise to 200 on the flop? I think your objective on the flop raise is two fold. 1 - win the pot now, 2 - buy a free river card. Given that you raised to 200, when the pot is 300, and SB is getting 2:1 odds to call (and if he calls, UTG+1 is getting 3:1), do you think this is an optimal line? I don't have the best answer here, but when you look at the remaining chip stacks of SB and UTG+1, do we feel fishy about shoving here (on the flop)?

Great comment. I definitely need to start paying more attention to the pot odds that I am giving my opponents.

Yes, those were my two goals with the bet, although if they stick around I think I can really hurt them if I hit any of my hand so I am ok with that as well. However looking at it again I think I should have pushed it a little higher (btw, yes I think shoving looks fishy), say to 500. That does a couple of things. It reps a stronger hand (like maybe trips) and it drops the odds to 1.6 for the SB. If he calls UTG is still getting pretty close to 3 to 1 but that is ok.

Good comments

[gabe]

i raise the river if i dont hit a jack and its not a club sometimes

[Renton]

I think with your stack you could raise this preflop.

Then it would make you cap'n for this rest of this hand.

[GatorJH]

I think with your stack you could raise this preflop.

Then it would make you cap'n for this rest of this hand.

I thought about that, but both the button and BB were fairly aggressive so I didn't want to piss away a bunch of chips if either of them came over my raise.

[Scuba Chuck]

I think with your stack you could raise this preflop.

Then it would make you cap'n for this rest of this hand.

I'm not completely against raising with position here, but I think it's not a good move. I think I'd rather raise with 78s than QJs. Furthermore, the impression you're leaving me about your "cap'n" comments lead me to believe you still have an inner fish. QJs is a great drawing hand. Why do you want to bloat the pot preflop? It leaves you with fewer options on the flop, IMO.

[GatorJH]

I think I'd rather raise with 78s than QJs.

That is an interesting comment. Could you expand on the reason for your preference to raise here with 78s vs QJs?

[Renton]

I think with your stack you could raise this preflop.

Then it would make you cap'n for this rest of this hand.

I'm not completely against raising with position here, but I think it's not a good move. I think I'd rather raise with 78s than QJs. Furthermore, the impression you're leaving me about your "cap'n" comments lead me to believe you still have an inner fish. QJs is a great drawing hand. Why do you want to bloat the pot preflop? It leaves you with fewer options on the flop, IMO.

Well you have two ways to win then. You have a big stack so you can absorb the loss if you completely miss the flop. You might have taken it down preflop with a raise (and won a decent sized pot btw), but when you flop this monster draw you could play it harder and have more credibility. Even with a pair you shouldn't have to worry about domination. People don't tend to limp AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ in sngs very often, especially in a family pot such as this.

I'm rambling... Succinctly, potting this preflop would probably take it down enough to be marginally profitable, in and of itself. If you get called, you have command of the hand, and QJs hits lotsa flops. If you flop top pair, its usually good in this scenario, and if you flop a draw you can play it as aggressively as top pair because of the respect you commanded preflop. Factor in position and the chip lead, and I think this becomes a good play.

Does this make sense?

[GatorJH]

I'm rambling... Succinctly, potting this preflop would probably take it down enough to be marginally profitable, in and of itself. If you get called, you have command of the hand, and QJs hits lotsa flops.

There are still three people to act, including one who will have position on you afterwards. What do you do if any of them raise/push? Also, I think to truly take command of this hand you have to put in a bet of 4 to 5xBB (versus "potting" it as you mention). If you get calls with that size raise anyone else in the pot may feel pretty close to pot committed and decide to push.

Note: I tend to ramble as well so the net is, would you be willing to call a re-raise/push with this hand?

[Renton]

[quote="GatorJH"][/quote="Renton"] I'm rambling... Succinctly, potting this preflop would probably take it down enough to be marginally profitable, in and of itself. If you get called, you have command of the hand, and QJs hits lotsa flops.

There are still three people to act, including one who will have position on you afterwards. What do you do if any of them raise/push? Also, I think to truly take command of this hand you have to put in a bet of 4 to 5xBB (versus "potting" it as you mention). If you get calls with that size raise anyone else in the pot may feel pretty close to pot committed and decide to push.

Note: I tend to ramble as well so the net is, would you be willing to call a re-raise/push with this hand?

of course not.

But I think that happens seldom enough to not adversely affect your bottom line with this play.

[GatorJH]

That is why, with the button and BB being aggressive players I think this warrants a call instead of a raise.

Were the players behind me (especially the button) tight I think your strategy may have some merit.

Thanks for the input.

[Scuba Chuck]

There are still three people to act, including one who will have position on you afterwards. What do you do if any of them raise/push? Also, I think to truly take command of this hand you have to put in a bet of 4 to 5xBB (versus "potting" it as you mention). If you get calls with that size raise anyone else in the pot may feel pretty close to pot committed and decide to push.

Note: I tend to ramble as well so the net is, would you be willing to call a re-raise/push with this hand?[/quote]

There is need to be concerned about the potential callers behind you if you see a flop, but if they re-raise/push it's an easy decision.

[Scuba Chuck]

Well you have two ways to win then. You have a big stack so you can absorb the loss if you completely miss the flop. You might have taken it down preflop with a raise (and won a decent sized pot btw), but when you flop this monster draw you could play it harder and have more credibility. Even with a pair you shouldn't have to worry about domination. People don't tend to limp AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ in sngs very often, especially in a family pot such as this.

I'm rambling... Succinctly, potting this preflop would probably take it down enough to be marginally profitable, in and of itself. If you get called, you have command of the hand, and QJs hits lotsa flops. If you flop top pair, its usually good in this scenario, and if you flop a draw you can play it as aggressively as top pair because of the respect you commanded preflop. Factor in position and the chip lead, and I think this becomes a good play.

Does this make sense?

What you are trying to say makes sense. But what you are saying makes less (not little). Your line makes more sense with AQo than QJs. Specifically referring to your example, if the flop comes queen high, you cannot play QJs as strong, for example, as AQo. It's just plain spewing.

Furthermore, in low buyin games, the respect we all think we deserve by raising, just does not exist, thankfully. That's why these games are so juicy. But also, your line of thinking may be why the raises don't get the respect they deserve (but I doubt it).

Finally, the potential to play strong draws with position is more fun out of smaller pots, than bigger ones built by hero (which is including the big pots you build that you flop nothing and or scare cards).

[Renton]

so are you saying, Chuck, that if you raise with QJ in this situation and flop a TPGK with queens or jacks, that its spewing chips to bet out with this holding?

Do you think that one of the limpers could dominate you with a better queen or jack?