Pot/Implied Odds question [HH]

[THaC]

PokerStars Game #4219325314: Tournament #20974031, Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2006/03/08 - 16:53:02 (ET)
Table '20974031 4' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: CLO285 (3600 in chips)
Seat 2: Revenue (1690 in chips)
Seat 3: Roscoe23 (1480 in chips)
Seat 4: TbHackworth (1785 in chips)
Seat 5: FSUFAN88 (1745 in chips)
Seat 6: Mott2804 (2170 in chips)
Seat 7: just1n_1 (1220 in chips)
Seat 8: sierra5729 (1790 in chips)
Seat 9: My9to5 (2010 in chips)
sierra5729: posts small blind 15
My9to5: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TbHackworth [5c 4c]
CLO285: folds
Revenue: folds
Roscoe23: calls 30
TbHackworth: calls 30
FSUFAN88: calls 30
Mott2804: folds
just1n_1: folds
sierra5729: calls 15
My9to5: checks
*** FLOP *** [6c Tc 7h]
sierra5729: checks
My9to5: bets 100
Roscoe23: folds
TbHackworth: calls 100
FSUFAN88: folds
sierra5729: calls 100
*** TURN *** [6c Tc 7h] [7s]
sierra5729: checks
My9to5: bets 210
TbHackworth: calls 210
sierra5729: calls 210
*** RIVER *** [6c Tc 7h 7s] [8d]
sierra5729: checks
My9to5: bets 400
TbHackworth: calls 400
sierra5729: folds
*** SHOW DOWN ***
My9to5: shows [Td Ks] (two pair, Tens and Sevens)
TbHackworth: shows [5c 4c] (a straight, Four to Eight)
TbHackworth collected 1880 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1880 | Rake 0
Board [6c Tc 7h 7s 8d]
Seat 1: CLO285 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Revenue folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Roscoe23 folded on the Flop
Seat 4: TbHackworth showed [5c 4c] and won (1880) with a straight, Four to Eight
Seat 5: FSUFAN88 folded on the Flop
Seat 6: Mott2804 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: just1n_1 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: sierra5729 (small blind) folded on the River
Seat 9: My9to5 (big blind) showed [Td Ks] and lost with two pair, Tens and Sevens


Was I getting the right odds to draw to this? Only question I really have is at the flop, without knowing that anyone behind me would call.. did I have the right pot/implied odds to call?

[THaC]

Also.. kind of a reverse implied odds question.. Push over top this hand?

PokerStars Game #4219453828: Tournament #20974031, Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2006/03/08 - 17:06:27 (ET)
Table '20974031 4' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: NICHOLAS929 (1540 in chips)
Seat 2: Revenue (1730 in chips)
Seat 3: Roscoe23 (1000 in chips)
Seat 4: TbHackworth (2450 in chips)
Seat 5: FSUFAN88 (2055 in chips)
Seat 6: Mott2804 (1720 in chips)
Seat 7: just1n_1 (1845 in chips)
Seat 8: sierra5729 (1835 in chips)
Seat 9: My9to5 (1795 in chips)
FSUFAN88: posts small blind 25
Mott2804: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TbHackworth [Kh As]
just1n_1: calls 50
sierra5729: folds
My9to5: folds
NICHOLAS929: folds
Revenue: folds
Roscoe23: folds
TbHackworth: raises 150 to 200
FSUFAN88: folds
Mott2804: folds
just1n_1: raises 500 to 700

[JeffreyGB]

For the record: Preflop, I don't like the call unless you're at a very passive table.

On the flop, the call is fine assuming that a you with with either the flush or the straight. If that assumption is correct, then you're actually the favorite at this point. I don't mind reraising here either (especially given that I'm only in this position at a passive table).

Honestly, I like the turn call a lot less than a call or a raise on the flop. Only one card to come, plus you saw the player behind you smooth call (making me wonder if your flush outs are good, and opening the possibility for them to be check-calling with a boat).

On the river I probably play it the same and lay it down if sierra pushes.

[THaC]

I like to limp in a lot of pots with drawing hands, and the table was somewhat passive, only raises I've seen were with monsters.

But I should raise the flop? What do you think I should raise it to, 300?

[chardrian]

Flop - you need to call 100 into a 250 pot. Unless he has 9T and your str8 outs are not clean, you have 15 outs on that flop (a minimum of 12 if the 8 actually gives you the butt end of the str8). 15 outs gives you about a 30% chance to hit your next card. 100/350 = about 28%. So you have the odds to call. Especially when you consider implied odds that you could destack your opp if you hit your turn I definitely call (a reraise as a semi-bluff is not a bad play either).

Turn - now you need to call 210 into a 660 pot. 210/870 = 24%. He bet weaker giving you the odds again to call IF you still have 15 outs. Lots of worries here now though because you actually could be drawing dead (if he has the boat). because of this I would probably discount my outs here down to 12 which makes the call on the turn close - but ok.

[JeffreyGB]

The reason I don't like the preflop in the first hand is because you're out of position and you don't know if you're going to be getting limpers in behind you or facing a raise. If you were two spots closer to the button the limp is much better IMO.

Re: flop raise - 300 sounds decent, calling if he pushes. If he calls, he'll probably check the turn, where you can check behind if you miss and bet if you hit. This way you also define sierra's hand fast, to find out if the flush/straight is good.

In the AK hand, you have to have reads and go from there. Generally, a limp-huge bet indicates a big hand in my book, and so I may well lay down AK there (as I'm putting him on AK/TT+).

[JeffreyGB]

Flop - you need to call 100 into a 250 pot. Unless he has 9T and your str8 outs are not clean, you have 15 outs on that flop (a minimum of 12 if the 8 actually gives you the butt end of the str8). 15 outs gives you about a 30% chance to hit your next card. 100/350 = about 28%. So you have the odds to call. Especially when you consider implied odds that you could destack your opp if you hit your turn I definitely call (a reraise as a semi-bluff is not a bad play either).

Turn - now you need to call 210 into a 660 pot. 210/870 = 24%. He bet weaker giving you the odds again to call IF you still have 15 outs. Lots of worries here now though because you actually could be drawing dead (if he has the boat). because of this I would probably discount my outs here down to 12 which makes the call on the turn close - but ok.

So you think facing another straight here is more likely than facing a higher flush draw?

Also, I don't put the raiser on a boat...though I think sierra may well play it like this.

[THaC]

In the AK hand, you have to have reads and go from there. Generally, a limp-huge bet indicates a big hand in my book, and so I may well lay down AK there (as I'm putting him on AK/TT+).

Yeah, I put his range on AQs+, AKo, TT-QQ .. I didn't think he'd do this with KK/AA, he seemed like a bit of a trappy player, but one that wanted to get chips and hide his AA/KK.

The way it played out, I called, and the flop was AJ2. The only thing I was afraid of on that flop was JJ, and I bet to see where I was and he folded. It may be a little results oriented, but I think with the reverse implied odds I should've pushed and taken the flip.

[chardrian]

Fair nuff JB - the boat and the higher flush are now worries after that flop call behind you. I don't know how many outs I discount now. A fold on that turn is not a bad play.

[zenbitz]

First hand - I think the preflop call is OK. JGB is correct about getting raised behind, but it's a trivial amount of chips you can just fold.

Easy flop call... turn call I am starting to get worried. Especially with the 3rd guy calling along - he has either a monster or a better f/d than you.

I would raise the river. You can't count implied odds if you don't raise when you hit! I might just flat call the river if I hit the flush instead of the straight.

[drmcboy]

I love this guy watching the two worst cards short of a club peel off and he's just leading away.

I raise flop. Turn I would either decide I don't care about the board pair and am going to raise the river if I hit, or fold. Zenbitz has it here - I never want to chase when I can't make some river chips.

[Sprayed]

1st hand, raise flop, call/bet turn, if hit river bet. With a lot of outs I like to play aggressively on the flop.

2nd hand, I'm pushing pre-flop after his reraise. I like flips.

[THaC]

Ran into the same situation, I do like this play better. Thanks guys!

PokerStars Game #4222197446: Tournament #20792904, Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2006/03/08 - 21:09:50 (ET)
Table '20792904 39' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: MLCMG (1280 in chips)
Seat 2: TobiasJosias (1085 in chips)
Seat 3: mld530 (1950 in chips)
Seat 4: dnice0123 (5035 in chips)
Seat 5: LUKENS47 (5980 in chips)
Seat 6: Crimsonduck (3720 in chips)
Seat 7: monkeydrive (925 in chips)
Seat 8: Tommie (2230 in chips)
Seat 9: TbHackworth (1380 in chips)
TbHackworth: posts small blind 25
MLCMG: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TbHackworth [3d 4d]
TobiasJosias: folds
mld530: folds
dnice0123: folds
LUKENS47: folds
Crimsonduck: calls 50
monkeydrive: folds
Tommie: folds
TbHackworth: calls 25
MLCMG: checks
*** FLOP *** [Ad 5s 6d]
dnice0123 said, "ty"
TbHackworth: checks
MLCMG: checks
Crimsonduck: bets 100
dnice0123 said, "take care"
TbHackworth: raises 200 to 300
MLCMG: folds
Crimsonduck: folds
TbHackworth collected 350 from pot
TbHackworth: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 350 | Rake 0
Board [Ad 5s 6d]
Seat 1: MLCMG (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: TobiasJosias folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: mld530 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: dnice0123 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: LUKENS47 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Crimsonduck folded on the Flop
Seat 7: monkeydrive folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Tommie (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: TbHackworth (small blind) collected (350)

[zenbitz]

2nd hand.... yuck. Le Fou would say this is "always AT" and you should push.
I think it's a flip at best. It could be a very weak hand like 44, but that's still a favorite over you. The dead money means this is probably a clear +EV push, but it's high variance.

It's kind of gutless, but I think I fold here since it's early and I hope I can out play the field.