Call/no call

[dalecooper]

Playing in a $33 freezeout on Party. I don't have the hand history and this was a few days ago, so the numbers here are approximations.

Big stack under the gun limps in for 200. Player in mid position makes it 500 to go - he is somewhat short-stacked, only having about 2000 left even before his raise. I call in the seat after him with pocket 9s. Big stack calls as well, and three of us see the flop:

554 rainbow

The big stack hesitates briefly, then pushes all in. The pot was about 1600 before this overbet. He has me covered, and I have about 5000 chips left. Short stack insta-calls.

Do you call here or not?

Further (meaningless) info: my friend was actually playing this tournament, and I was sweating his cards. He rolled his eyes and folded without really thinking it over, and as he was clicking on Fold, I was yelling at him to call. Who was right, me or my friend?

[THaC]

I don't think so.. he limps UTG and flat calls, then shoves it all in.. I gotta think you're beat here.

[drmcboy]

I think it's raise/fold pre flop dependent on feeling for UTG limp.

As played, it's pretty gross to call a raise with 99 and fold on that board. Hopefully it's shorty who has you beat.

[zenbitz]

fold preflop? It's close though.
If my math is right, you are getting 8:5... but you will survive if short stack beats you (which is good because he played it like he has at least QQ).

Big stack probably has like 67.

99 is probably exactly EV neutral to call this. TT easy call, 88 easy fold.

[dalecooper]

I don't think so.. he limps UTG and flat calls, then shoves it all in.. I gotta think you're beat here.

I won't argue that it's *impossible* the big stack is ahead, but if he was limping with a big pair, why allow a raise AND a call behind him, and then not re-raise to get more chips in the pot, and possibly isolate one of us? To me, at the time, it seemed like his actions were exactly consistent with a small or medium pocket pair, most or all of which I am ahead of.

If my math is right, you are getting 8:5... but you will survive if short stack beats you (which is good because he played it like he has at least QQ).

Chip stacks are important here. It's better than me surviving - I come out ahead on the play as long as I beat the big stack. Consider: I had roughly 5500 before the hand started. As of the point at which I either call or don't call, there are two pots: 1. a main pot of 4500 with the short stack all in (and 1500 of my call would go into that pot); 2. a side pot of 3500 (the rest of my call against the big stack's push). If I call and only beat the big stack, I still end up with 7000 chips. Although it looks a lot better if I win against both of them, because then I'd have 13000.

To me the hand looks like this: big stack limp-calls with a medium pair, then sees a flop that looks like a pair might be good, and pushes to discourage me from playing a better hand than his (which worked), or maybe just because that's his default play with a medium pair on that kind of flop. Short stack will probably call with anything - of course an overpair, if he has one, but also any two overcards. I put his range at something like AQ, AK, TT-AA. I put big stack's range as 22-TT, plus perhaps 67s.

My take on it is that if you're going to call the short stack's raise pre-flop in the first place, you have to call his all in on that flop. And the big stack is telegraphing a fairly weak hand, which I feel I am probably way ahead of.

Thoughts?

[unidentity]

dalecooper-

I won't argue that it's *impossible* the big stack is ahead, but if he was limping with a big pair, why allow a raise AND a call behind him, and then not re-raise to get more chips in the pot, and possibly isolate one of us? To me, at the time, it seemed like his actions were exactly consistent with a small or medium pocket pair, most or all of which I am ahead of.

Was this guy a solid player? I could see AA,KK make this play if hes the gambling type. If he was slow-rolling AA,KK I don't understand the insta-AI on the flop(if he did have a monster KK is more likely cause no A hit on the flop and now he wants you to draw for it). I mean, make it look like he was bluffing so maybe your AK,AQ would call him?

dalecooper-

To me the hand looks like this: big stack limp-calls with a medium pair, then sees a flop that looks like a pair might be good

I agree with this, but its how big of a pair does he have? There are still 5 PP's higher then yours and figuring out which one he has is going to be tricky. I think he would make this same play with JJ-66, I think I am folding here cause without any real reads I can wait for a better spot.

[TanO]

Should have either folded preflop or reraised to try and isolate the short stack / find out if big stack has a monster.
You can reraise half your stack, basically telling UTG that you're committed and making the shorter stack go for it right there.

99's a crappy hand, I'm probably giving it up early.

[dalecooper]

Should have either folded preflop or reraised to try and isolate the short stack / find out if big stack has a monster.

I don't have a strong opinion on that, but it's not the question I'm asking. Like I said, I didn't play the hand, I was just watching and commentating at a crucial moment. I will point out, however, that the short stack is giving everybody the right price to see a flop, which gives you some implied odds - not so much against him, but possibly against the big stack if he *is* getting cute with a monster hand, or if he connects in some way with a drawing hand. If there were no one else in besides the short stack, I think it's a clearer re-raise-or-fold situation. In this case, the pre-flop call is probably about break-even EV, to me; you could make a case that re-raising or folding is still better, though.

[zenbitz]

If my math is right, you are getting 8:5... but you will survive if short stack beats you (which is good because he played it like he has at least QQ).

Short stack will probably call with anything - of course an overpair, if he has one, but also any two overcards. I put his range at something like AQ, AK, TT-AA. I put big stack's range as 22-TT, plus perhaps 67s.

My take on it is that if you're going to call the short stack's raise pre-flop in the first place, you have to call his all in on that flop. And the big stack is telegraphing a fairly weak hand, which I feel I am probably way ahead of.

Big stacks hand:
I agree with your range with some exceptions:
I think 22 or 33 is unlikely. I think JJ-AA is a little wierdly played, but he knows he is getting shortstacks money in. Plus he's the big stack, already in the pot, and can afford to spash around.

I think you can call here, but it's very slim. I think the short stack very likley has you beat, so really you are just getting even money on your last 3000 chips.

[dalecooper]

My feeling was that QQ-AA was *highly* unlikely for the big stack, mainly because his pre-flop and flop actions are totally inconsistent with each other if that was the hand he had. If he had a truly powerful hand like that, a common play would be to re-raise to isolate the short stack, who will certainly call. Some players don't do this, though; they'd rather slowplay the hand a bit. But if that's the case, his leadout on the flop makes no sense at all - it's the complete opposite action, and now he's allowed two other players to see a flop. I can't put him on those hands. TT or JJ, possibly.

Anyway, thanks for all the responses. Results:

My friend folded, as mentioned. Big stack turned over 33 and short stack Ah Th. The threes held up.