I hate this hand. QQ v CR

[Demiparadigm]

Check behind the river?
Call the check raise?

Villain is 40/5/0.7

PokerStars Game #4227113192: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2006/03/09 - 09:23:25 (ET)
Table 'Klare' Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: steven27 ($33.65 in chips)
Seat 2: vgundam81 ($83 in chips)
Seat 3: Becks#7 ($183.70 in chips)
Seat 4: Demiparadigm ($425.30 in chips)
Seat 5: 989wayne ($37.45 in chips)
Seat 6: eclipx ($11.60 in chips)
Becks#7: posts small blind $0.50
Demiparadigm: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Demiparadigm [Qh Qd]
989wayne: folds
eclipx: folds
steven27: calls $1
vgundam81: calls $1
Becks#7: calls $0.50
Demiparadigm: raises $4 to $5
steven27: folds
vgundam81: folds
Becks#7: calls $4
*** FLOP *** [Th 2d Tc]
Becks#7: checks
Demiparadigm: bets $7
Becks#7: calls $7
*** TURN *** [Th 2d Tc] [7h]
Becks#7: checks
Demiparadigm: bets $15
Becks#7: calls $15
*** RIVER *** [Th 2d Tc 7h] [8c]
Becks#7: checks
Demiparadigm: bets $30
Becks#7: raises $72 to $102
Demiparadigm: folds
Becks#7 collected $113 from pot
Becks#7: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $116 | Rake $3
Board [Th 2d Tc 7h 8c]
Seat 1: steven27 folded before Flop
Seat 2: vgundam81 (button) folded before Flop
Seat 3: Becks#7 (small blind) collected ($113)
Seat 4: Demiparadigm (big blind) folded on the River
Seat 5: 989wayne folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: eclipx folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[Rondavu]

I love this play by the Villain whether he has the ten or not. What a great line. Rainbow uncoordinated board, you pop trips (or not), and you wait till the river to show hero a wall.

[arkana]

Good fold on the river, I think you played it fine but I normally check behind on the river in this spot against decent players.

[dsaxton]

I'd usually check behind on the turn, then call most river bets or bet when checked to. I think this line wins the maximum when ahead and loses the minimum when behind.

Since there are no draws on board, your opponent is indicating by his call that he's either way ahead or way behind, so a free card is not much of a concern. Betting the turn is just telling him to fold when he's behind, and potentially costing you more money when he's not. After checking the turn, he'll usually again check the river if he has a pocket pair, and you can make a value bet which he's almost compelled to call. If he bets the river, you may begin to suspect 3 T's or better, and I would base my decision as to whether or not to call primarily on the size of his bet.

[zenbitz]

Isn't it good to bet this turn if you run the same line with Q9 instead?

[Fnord]

I love this play by the Villain whether he has the ten or not. What a great line.

Leading out is a far better line and balances well.

I got stacked for 150bb a couple nights ago when a LAgg blasted away into a 669 two-tone board and I paid off with AA.

[Demiparadigm]

Isn't it good to bet this turn if you run the same line with Q9 instead?

This is an interenting point.... I am betting this turn with any 2 cards that I raised with. This makes me susceptible to this kind of bluff often, since I often have air at the river.

[Miffed22001]

i like dsaxtons line of turn check here, but not necessarily because i am always behind here. More like to entice opp to bet his hand strength into me so i can raise/fold the hand i have as a laggy player. I either have a hand to raise with here or i dont.
Still, dsaxtons general line is best here to me.

[Demiparadigm]

i like dsaxtons line of turn check here, but not necessarily because i am always behind here. More like to entice opp to bet his hand strength into me so i can raise/fold the hand i have as a laggy player. I either have a hand to raise with here or i dont.
Still, dsaxtons general line is best here to me.

The only problems with Dsaxtons line are:

A) I am giving free cards to hands like AK which have outs to beat me.
B) A great player may notice that I am betting the turn with weaker holdings than I am checking behind with. I can balance this by checking behind with hands that have no showdown value like suited connectors, but overall it may be exploitable.

[dsaxton]

i like dsaxtons line of turn check here, but not necessarily because i am always behind here. More like to entice opp to bet his hand strength into me so i can raise/fold the hand i have as a laggy player. I either have a hand to raise with here or i dont.
Still, dsaxtons general line is best here to me.

The only problems with Dsaxtons line are:

A) I am giving free cards to hands like AK which have outs to beat me.
B) A great player may notice that I am betting the turn with weaker holdings than I am checking behind with. I can balance this by checking behind with hands that have no showdown value like suited connectors, but overall it may be exploitable.

The only hand that isn't drawing incredibly thin against you is A-K, and it's not a likely holding anyways.

And why are you betting the turn with weak holdings after getting called on this flop? It seems like you may be being a bit overzealous with continuation betting. After someone has called your flop bet, he's indicating he has some type of a reasonable hand. The turn very rarely changes this (compare this to the dynamiac of preflop / flop), which is why I think it's usually best to slow down if you get called on the flop.

[zenbitz]

And why are you betting the turn with weak holdings after getting called on this flop? It seems like you may be being a bit overzealous with continuation betting. After someone has called your flop, he's indicating he has some type of a reasonable hand. The turn very rarely changes this (compare this to the dynamiac of preflop / flop), which is why I think it's usually best to slow down if you get called on the flop.

Table image? I think both lines are fine - it's just a stylistic difference. My post about Q9 was that if you are lagging it up pre-flop, you need to bet your good and air hands the same - since Q9 has no showdown value, you must bet the turn; hence you should bet QQ on the turn here.

This is ONLY if you are raising crap like Q9 preflop and firing both barrels.

[aislephive]

i like dsaxtons line of turn check here, but not necessarily because i am always behind here. More like to entice opp to bet his hand strength into me so i can raise/fold the hand i have as a laggy player. I either have a hand to raise with here or i dont.
Still, dsaxtons general line is best here to me.

The only problems with Dsaxtons line are:

A) I am giving free cards to hands like AK which have outs to beat me.
B) A great player may notice that I am betting the turn with weaker holdings than I am checking behind with. I can balance this by checking behind with hands that have no showdown value like suited connectors, but overall it may be exploitable.

AK is very unlikely due to the preflop play. Why would he limp behind two other limpers in the small blind with AK? That would be a very strange line. I think his most likely holding on this board is a pocket pair like 88, although the river play makes me think he has a ten.

I like dsaxton's line here of checking the turn. At best he is drawing to three outs (Ax or Kx), but most likely he only has two outs. If he is ahead then we're in awful shape drawing to a two outer of our own. Plus you induce a bluff on occasion by checking behind on the turn.

If he checks again I would make another value bet and expect any pocket pair to call. If he has a ten he didn't make a ton of money on the hand and the pot is relatively small. Like dsaxton was saying, the best way to maximize your winnings and minimize your losses on this hand is to check behind on the turn.

[Miffed22001]

checking the turn does two things imo;
induces opp to bet oop into a real hand that isnt that weak considering the board
induces the trips to bet us into a call.

the only difficulty with the river here in position is if a thinking opp who can put us on a hand bets the ten real hard. Otherwise id bet the river too or call an opp betting perhaps even minraise the river.
3 betting tells us were beat but i think a lot of worse hands will call our river bet after we check the turn. they cant get past 88 being good here bcoz we checked the turn.