ATs vs. a Elephant

[Stagemn]

CO is a definate Elephant (VP$IP 47%, PFR 0%, TAF 1.4). Never raises what so ever, all he does is call or bets. Should I push post flop? I have no idea what he would be holding.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t25/t50
7 players

Stack sizes:
UTG: t1915
UTG+1: t1320
Hero: t1255
CO: t9295
Button: t6490
SB: t1530
BB: t5285

Pre-flop: (7 players) Hero is MP1 with T A
UTG calls t50, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises to t300, CO calls t300, 4 folds.

Flop: T 2 7 (t725, 2 players)
Hero ???

[GatorJH]

Why wouldn't you put in a standard pot size bet?

[Scuba Chuck]

Should I push post flop?

You have only two options here.

1) Push
2) If you are next to certain that he will bet if checked to, then c/r allin. Anything to get allin on the flop with more chips is great.

Based on your read, I don't think you should risk seeing a turn for free.

[Staresy]

Based on your read, I don't think you should risk seeing a turn for free.

Agreed. AT is still vulnerable in this spot to someone who is liable to be holding any two. It's probably as good a flop as you could hope for. Chances are he is going to call you anyway, so why wait for him to catch up?

[TLR]

with our stack push the flop

[GatorJH]

Anything to get allin on the flop with more chips is great.

If your goal is to get his chips why are we pushing this flop? IMO this is about a good a flop as you have have with A10 and I would think there would be very few cards that could come up to put you behind in the hand.

You have a greater shot at getting him to call a pot sized bet than a push. Btw, I am ignoring the fact that a pot sized bet practically commits you to the pot because I am more concerned with collecting chips from a player who loves to call with nothing. If you string him along he will come, if you put his tournament on the line with a push he will most likely go away.

[Warpe]

Anything to get allin on the flop with more chips is great.

If your goal is to get his chips why are we pushing this flop? IMO this is about a good a flop as you have have with A10 and I would think there would be very few cards that could come up to put you behind in the hand.

You have a greater shot at getting him to call a pot sized bet than a push. Btw, I am ignoring the fact that a pot sized bet practically commits you to the pot because I am more concerned with collecting chips from a player who loves to call with nothing. If you string him along he will come, if you put his tournament on the line with a push he will most likely go away.

CO: t9295

Villain is chipleader so he's in no danger from hero. Pot is big enough to push and villain may see it as a bluff and call anyway. Pot bet screams that hero wants a call.

[GatorJH]

Villain is chipleader so he's in no danger from hero. Pot is big enough to push and villain may see it as a bluff and call anyway. Pot bet screams that hero wants a call.

I looked at the wrong stack, however if villian is a true elephant do you really think he is going to analyze a pot sized bet to determine that we want him to call? I don't think so. I think, in this situation, you could bet half of your stack and one of two things happens. He folds (which tells you he wouldn't have called anyway), he flat calls and you push the rest in on the turn or you bet and he raises you all-in. All of these are good results.

Yes, he may go ahead and call a push of 955 chips, but if you are willing to put all of your chips in the middle that may just raise enough of a flag for him to let this go.

The net, for me, is that I think a push gets him thinking more than a smallish bet does.

[Stagemn]

I thought along the lines of just over half the pot on the flop and a push on the turn. As it turned out, see below:

Flop: (t725) T, 2, 7 (2 players)
Hero bets t400, CO calls t400.

Turn: (t1525) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets t555 (All-In), CO calls t555.

River: (t2635) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t2635

Results:
Hero has Ts As (two pair, tens and twos).
CO has Qs Qc (two pair, queens and twos).
Outcome: CO wins t2635.

Can't win 'em all.

[Fortune 500]

Results aside, I'm not sure I like ATs as a preflop raising hand, going right into the big stack and with an UTG limp.

[Scuba Chuck]

I should add, I don't care for your line preflop with 25 BBs behind.

There are quite a few reasons I prefer a shove on the flop here, over any other bet. One of the reasons that comes to mind has to do with the difference between cash games and tourney games. That being said, the difference between the third stack and fourth stack is soooo tremendous, that perhaps inducing a call or bluff from biggie is worthwhile. If Hero was within striking distance of third, I think a push is far better.