Deepstack MTT Bluff...

[frank123]

Some history of the table is that I was recently moved there, and I'm about 14th or so in chips overall. We're not near the bubble as this is a PS Deepstack (30 min blind levels), but under 150 ppl are left with 54 paying. I was recently in a pot with villian where he slowplayed a flopped-full house on me, so that was playing in the back of my mind. Anyone think this play is completely out of line, or just a good call by him?


PokerStars Game #4565963380: Tournament #22380211, Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2006/04/08 - 21:40:43 (ET)
Table '22380211 50' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: MURFRR (14958 in chips)
Seat 2: The_Venetian (18849 in chips)
Seat 3: juniata (7121 in chips)
Seat 4: mkdyer (6695 in chips)
Seat 5: TTAAZ (37000 in chips)
Seat 6: chickendog (10850 in chips)
Seat 7: RatPackCpt (4630 in chips)
Seat 8: M_Jason (10470 in chips)
Seat 9: yagmaster (28965 in chips)
MURFRR: posts the ante 25
The_Venetian: posts the ante 25
juniata: posts the ante 25
mkdyer: posts the ante 25
TTAAZ: posts the ante 25
chickendog: posts the ante 25
RatPackCpt: posts the ante 25
M_Jason: posts the ante 25
yagmaster: posts the ante 25
RatPackCpt: posts small blind 100
M_Jason: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to yagmaster [Ks Qh]
yagmaster: calls 200
MURFRR: folds
The_Venetian: raises 600 to 800
juniata: folds
mkdyer: folds
TTAAZ: folds
chickendog: folds
RatPackCpt: folds
M_Jason: folds
yagmaster: calls 600
*** FLOP *** [5d 3d 2c]
yagmaster: checks
The_Venetian: bets 1400
yagmaster: calls 1400
*** TURN *** [5d 3d 2c] [Ts]
yagmaster: checks
The_Venetian: bets 2500
yagmaster: raises 6300 to 8800
The_Venetian: calls 6300
*** RIVER *** [5d 3d 2c Ts] [Qs]
yagmaster: bets 17940 and is all-in
The_Venetian: calls 7824 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
yagmaster: shows [Ks Qh] (a pair of Queens)
The_Venetian: shows [Kh Kc] (a pair of Kings)
The_Venetian collected 38173 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 38173 | Rake 0
Board [5d 3d 2c Ts Qs]
Seat 1: MURFRR folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: The_Venetian showed [Kh Kc] and won (38173) with a pair of Kings
Seat 3: juniata folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: mkdyer folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: TTAAZ folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: chickendog (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: RatPackCpt (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: M_Jason (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: yagmaster showed [Ks Qh] and lost with a pair of Queens


He ran his time bank down halfway before calling the turn. Is the river shove suicidal? Seems like the only hand that he would call with that I beat is JJ. Any thoughts are appreciated, even flames.

[supermoneyz1]

This hand hurts my head.

1) KQo is a fold utg. NO LIMPING, just fold it utg at a 9 handed table.

2) Once you limped it, you decided to call a raise with it even bigger mistake. (How do you know you're king and queen are clean outs?, meaning you can hit a king or queen and still lose.)

3) On the flop, you just flat out called a raise. You were playing for a big flop, you missed but why be so passive and just call. Either reraise or fold here, and clearly correct move is a fold. Theres no reason to think calling and trying to steal on turn is a good move.

deepstack tournaments allows for more creative play in situations that you have massive implied odds. If you were hoping to hit a big flop try a suitor connector where you will have clean outs.

[drmcboy]

super money is correct. fold pre flop twice, and I don't know what you're up to on the flop.

On the river, check call rather than push. As you say, almost no hand calls you here that doesn't have you beat, but a few may bet. and it's tough to come up with a hand that has you beat that can fold here. low PPs would have folded the turn.

[frank123]

I'm obviously not calling the flop to try and hit a king or a queen, I'm calling to take it away on the turn. I'm one of the two people who out-chip him, and thus can end his tournament life. I'm fine limping with K-Qo/s with a bigstack and huge implied odds, if a smaller stack raises its an easy fold; since he had chips, I decided to see a flop to try and outplay him. I said earlier that he had checked a flopped boat on the flop and turn, so I felt that he would do that with a good hand here.

Deepstacks allow for more creative play, which is why I posted this. I built up my stack by stacking several people who could not get away from an overpair or TPTK regardless of the board. I'm not saying that this was a great play (and if you go by results it wasn't), I'm just trying to explain the logic behind what I did. I felt I could make him fold nearly all hands with what I was representing, then questionably shoved the river when he was probably pot committed. One of the questions you guys missed was do you think he made a good call? If he folds on the turn, he still has around 14,000 chips, which is good for about 70 BB. Against one of the few stacks that can knock you out, do you call here? Personally I felt even an overpair would fold, hence why I made this move.

Not trying to defend my play with this post, just explaining what was going through my head.

[chardrian]

KK in an MTT is too difficult a hand to fold for most players with this board. Can he really put you on A4, 46, or two pair here? Doubtful, which leaves only a set as a possibility - many people would play 22,33, or 55 the way you did preflop.

It looks to me like your opp was worried about those possibilites - otherwise he would have just pushed the turn. But pushing someone off an overpair in that situation is really almost never going to happen. His call might not have been great because he should have pushed - but I think even you can agree that you wouldn't fold KK there.

[drmcboy]

everyone slow plays boats, I don't get why that hand is in your mind. Overpair does not equal boat.

The reason sets are so great in tourneys is people never lay down to them. Pretty much don't try. If a draw had gotten there, you could maybe give this a shot. You say yourself people can't lay down an overpair... then you go and try to move someone off an overpair? Just keep trying to make hands, or make moves with outs. Plus you have no read on this guy. I just don't see much to argue for making this play at this time, especially on the river. You made a (marginal) play on the turn, give it up.

On his call - slow playing a set on the flop & turn, one off a 4 card wheel, is terrible play so I can't believe he's putting you on a set on the flop. I'm sure he put on a PP and hoped it wasn't TT or QQ. 66 or 44 play it about the same.