100nl hands for critical review.

[Renton]

Hand 1

This was just a late position mix-up play. Villain is very loose preflop (limp/called a huge bet from me to hit a flush with 35s later in this session) I think it plays itself postflop, but just posting it to see if I approached this the best way.

***** Hand History for Game 4010221747 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, April 17, 19:37:34 ET 2006
Table Carpe Diem (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: spearafish ( $233.66 )
Seat 2: Spellmen ( $173.60 )
Seat 3: ME_LOVE_GAMBLE ( $15.50 )
Seat 4: Margaritivil ( $68.40 )
Seat 8: AdamSelene ( $74.35 )
Seat 10: sjohnson109 ( $79.50 )
Seat 5: Renton555 ( $124.50 )
Seat 6: River_This ( $99.50 )
Seat 7: JoelTorsk ( $116.70 )
Seat 9: Hulda3 ( $100 )
JoelTorsk posts small blind [$0.50].
AdamSelene posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Renton555 [ Th 8h ]
sjohnson109 calls [$1].
spearafish calls [$1].
Spellmen folds.
ME_LOVE_GAMBLE folds.
Margaritivil folds.
Renton555 raises [$7].
River_This folds.
JoelTorsk calls [$6.50].
AdamSelene folds.
sjohnson109 calls [$6].
spearafish calls [$6].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8s, 8d, As ]
JoelTorsk checks.
sjohnson109 checks.
spearafish checks.
Renton555 bets [$20].
JoelTorsk folds.
sjohnson109 folds.
spearafish raises [$40].
Renton555 calls [$20].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7c ]
spearafish bets [$80.57].
Renton555 is all-In.
** Dealing River ** [ 6c ]




Hand 2

I like how I played this. Should I have slowed down on the turn and maybe check to him?

***** Hand History for Game 4010579606 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, April 17, 20:13:30 ET 2006
Table The Reflex (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 6: Renton555 ( $132.40 )
Seat 7: OnThInIcE911 ( $92.15 )
Seat 5: RhnstoneHope ( $21.95 )
Seat 1: DKBBALL126 ( $57.35 )
Seat 3: SirChode ( $57.45 )
Seat 2: snitchholio ( $100 )
Seat 10: MISSOURICJP ( $19.50 )
Seat 9: GeorgeP03 ( $72.65 )
Seat 8: King4484 ( $99 )
Seat 4: batman0225 ( $24.77 )
King4484 posts small blind [$0.50].
GeorgeP03 posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Renton555 [ Ah Ac ]
MISSOURICJP folds.
DKBBALL126 folds.
snitchholio folds.
SirChode folds.
batman0225 calls [$1].
RhnstoneHope folds.
Renton555 raises [$4].
King4484 folds.
GeorgeP03 calls [$3].
batman0225 calls [$3].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4h, 9d, 5h ]
GeorgeP03 bets [$10].
batman0225 folds.
Renton555 raises [$25].
GeorgeP03 calls [$15].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2s ]
GeorgeP03 checks.
Renton555 bets [$20].
GeorgeP03 is all-In.
Renton555 calls [$23.65].
** Dealing River ** [ Qs ]




Hand 3

He called a ridiculously large bet on the flop. Was I wrong to check the turn here?

***** Hand History for Game 3983259070 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, April 15, 01:38:48 ET 2006
Table Table 99741 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 4: KennethL111 ( $35.05 )
Seat 6: Qj4l2fBU ( $53.35 )
Seat 7: tezbro ( $46.05 )
Seat 8: wmlipman ( $136.38 )
Seat 9: strus1 ( $81.15 )
Seat 10: charlie1118 ( $118.35 )
Seat 2: Renton555 ( $372.45 )
Seat 5: Blantons ( $100 )
Seat 3: a1hepcat ( $59.10 )
Seat 1: bdgad ( $98.50 )
Renton555 posts small blind [$0.50].
a1hepcat posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Renton555 [ Ac Ah ]
KennethL111 calls [$1].
Blantons folds.
Qj4l2fBU calls [$1].
tezbro calls [$1].
wmlipman folds.
strus1 folds.
charlie1118 folds.
bdgad folds.
Renton555 raises [$5.50].
a1hepcat folds.
KennethL111 calls [$5].
Qj4l2fBU calls [$5].
tezbro calls [$5].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Js, 8s, 6c ]
Renton555 bets [$23.75].
KennethL111 folds.
Qj4l2fBU folds.
tezbro calls [$23.75].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kh ]
Renton555 checks.
tezbro checks.
** Dealing River ** [ As ]
Renton555 bets [$25].
tezbro is all-In.





Hand 4

When shorties push this flop, I put them on air. Whaddyou think?

***** Hand History for Game 4010655342 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, April 17, 20:20:56 ET 2006
Table The Reflex (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 6: Renton555 ( $206.05 )
Seat 7: OnThInIcE911 ( $92.15 )
Seat 1: DKBBALL126 ( $55.85 )
Seat 3: SirChode ( $52.36 )
Seat 2: snitchholio ( $99 )
Seat 10: MISSOURICJP ( $29.68 )
Seat 8: King4484 ( $98.50 )
Seat 4: batman0225 ( $19.04 )
Seat 9: psshekhawat ( $38.75 )
psshekhawat posts small blind [$0.50].
>You have options at Table 96295 Table!.
MISSOURICJP posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Renton555 [ 9c 9h ]
DKBBALL126 folds.
snitchholio folds.
SirChode folds.
batman0225 calls [$1].
Renton555 raises [$4.50].
King4484 folds.
psshekhawat folds.
MISSOURICJP calls [$3.50].
batman0225 calls [$3.50].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6c, Ts, 5d ]
MISSOURICJP checks.
AceHigh_142 has joined the table.
batman0225 checks.
Renton555 bets [$8].
MISSOURICJP is all-In.
batman0225 folds.
Renton555 calls [$17.18].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kh ]
** Dealing River ** [ 8c ]





Hand 5

Bet the turn?

***** Hand History for Game 4012298116 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, April 17, 22:58:06 ET 2006
Table The Hammer (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: NineThumps ( $100 )
Seat 3: Mr_Petrovsky ( $246.90 )
Seat 4: Balls2Bluff ( $141.60 )
Seat 5: nlplayer333 ( $43.15 )
Seat 6: Eagle_Ray ( $85.10 )
Seat 8: cyberounder ( $101.50 )
Seat 9: rontherock ( $30.85 )
Seat 10: RogerP999 ( $55.15 )
Seat 7: Renton555 ( $101.60 )
Seat 1: Ben_Quick ( $100 )
rontherock posts small blind [$0.50].
RogerP999 posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Renton555 [ 8h 8s ]
NineThumps folds.
Mr_Petrovsky folds.
Balls2Bluff folds.
nlplayer333 folds.
Eagle_Ray calls [$1].
Renton555 raises [$3.50].
cyberounder folds.
rontherock folds.
RogerP999 folds.
Eagle_Ray calls [$2.50].
** Dealing Flop ** [ As, 8d, Ac ]
Eagle_Ray checks.
Renton555 checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3s ]
Eagle_Ray checks.
Renton555 checks.
** Dealing River ** [ 4c ].
Eagle_Ray bets [$3].
Renton555 raises [$8].
Eagle_Ray raises [$17].
Renton555 raises [$32].
Eagle_Ray is all-In.
Renton555 calls [$41.60].




Hand 6

I generally find that I have some FE against medium/shorties in this spot. As it turned out he'd flopped top two pair.

***** Hand History for Game 3993469385 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, April 16, 02:12:49 ET 2006
Table Table 97503 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: freetime168 ( $101.46 )
Seat 2: cwbeinbo6192 ( $171.78 )
Seat 3: ballonick ( $25.01 )
Seat 4: balipshous1 ( $106.05 )
Seat 5: UnlawfulFlop ( $115.50 )
Seat 7: birddog63 ( $32.90 )
Seat 10: venerable1 ( $97.50 )
Seat 8: Renton555 ( $102.35 )
Seat 6: butcha_p ( $15.90 )
Seat 9: tiltmonster9 ( $100 )
cwbeinbo6192 posts small blind [$0.50].
ballonick posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Renton555 [ 9c 7c ]
balipshous1 folds.
UnlawfulFlop folds.
butcha_p folds.
birddog63 calls [$1].
Renton555 raises [$4].
freetime168 folds.
cwbeinbo6192 folds.
ballonick folds.
birddog63 calls [$3].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qd, 6h, 8d ]
birddog63 bets [$5].
Renton555 is all-In.
birddog63 is all-In.






Hand 7

Villain is a semitight-aggressive/aggressive. He is a shark in poker-edge and he knows how I play. I opted to checkraise this flop because the pot-sized bet after my preflop raise seemed conspicuous. Plus I had outs. With the bet I am trying to represent a hand like JT or JJ (probably JJ since I raised preflop). I thought the size of his bet on the flop seemed like he was trying to buy it on a board that should scare me more than him. As it were, he called the c/r and my money card hit on fourth street.

***** Hand History for Game 3997899434 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, April 16, 15:18:23 ET 2006
Table Table 97427 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: feltdomin8or ( $103.10 )
Seat 4: Qef699_ ( $114.82 )
Seat 5: Berge20 ( $113.45 )
Seat 10: McVero ( $12.65 )
Seat 8: Renton555 ( $99 )
Seat 9: rdbjlp ( $109.45 )
Seat 3: kenboh ( $108.50 )
Seat 1: ZUM_BOY ( $94.85 )
Seat 6: hold_emnut ( $98.80 )
Seat 7: jcn47 ( $92.20 )
Renton555 posts small blind [$0.50].
rdbjlp posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Renton555 [ Qh Ah ]
ZUM_BOY folds.
feltdomin8or folds.
kenboh folds.
Qef699_ folds.
Berge20 calls [$1].
hold_emnut folds.
jcn47 folds.
Renton555 raises [$3].
rdbjlp folds.
Berge20 calls [$2.50].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8d, 9c, Ts ]
Renton555 checks.
Berge20 bets [$7].
Renton555 raises [$20].
Berge20 calls [$13].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Js ]
Renton555 checks.
Berge20 bets [$25].
Renton555 calls [$25].
** Dealing River ** [ 7h ]
Renton555 checks.
Berge20 bets [$52].
Renton555 is all-In.




Hand 8

Villain is a somewhat aggressive supafish. I expect I am against a smaller overpair or 55 a large enough percentage of the time to call here, given the feracity of his betting. It seems to me like a set would wait till the river to get all the money in.

***** Hand History for Game 4001815491 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, April 16, 22:24:25 ET 2006
Table Table 96192 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: PETER777333 ( $134.68 )
Seat 2: JBracken1 ( $56.82 )
Seat 3: JERSEYJOKER7 ( $55.24 )
Seat 4: Tyrolus ( $118.51 )
Seat 5: JohnnySky81 ( $95.50 )
Seat 6: bandonie ( $70.51 )
Seat 8: MaxxedMan ( $86.80 )
Seat 9: lordbawlz ( $0 )
Seat 10: blake1316 ( $272.85 )
Seat 7: Renton555 ( $100 )
PETER777333 posts small blind [$0.50].
JBracken1 posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Renton555 [ Qs Qd ]
JERSEYJOKER7 calls [$1].
JohnnySky81 folds.
bandonie calls [$1].
Renton555 raises [$5].
MaxxedMan folds.
blake1316 folds.
PETER777333 did not respond in time.
PETER777333 folds.
JBracken1 folds.
lordbawlz has left the table.
partyscott has joined the table.
JERSEYJOKER7 calls [$4].
bandonie folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2d, 4h, 3h ]
JERSEYJOKER7 checks.
Renton555 bets [$7].
partyscott has left the table.
JERSEYJOKER7 raises [$14].
Renton555 calls [$7].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4c ]
JERSEYJOKER7 is all-In.
Renton555 calls [$36.24].




Hand 9

All right, obviously postflop in this hand is a no brainer. With 102bb effective stacks and three ways, all of whom seem to have extremely strong hands, I can call 15bbs here and set hunt, right? Should I have threebet preflop to isolate with QQ?

***** Hand History for Game 3992880962 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, April 16, 01:05:37 ET 2006
Table Table 96041 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: orrmazin1 ( $55 )
Seat 3: Laskey ( $136.09 )
Seat 4: JRMR802 ( $95.35 )
Seat 5: tburd ( $100.75 )
Seat 6: ZUM_BOY ( $217.85 )
Seat 7: juice2849 ( $78.65 )
Seat 9: roryleah ( $121.98 )
Seat 10: colechris ( $125.25 )
Seat 1: Renton555 ( $102 )
Seat 8: PFFFTBOOOOM ( $98 )
PFFFTBOOOOM posts small blind [$0.50].
roryleah posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Renton555 [ Qd Qc ]
colechris raises [$5].
Renton555 calls [$5].
orrmazin1 folds.
Laskey raises [$20].
JRMR802 folds.
tburd folds.
ZUM_BOY folds.
juice2849 folds.
PFFFTBOOOOM folds.
roryleah folds.
colechris calls [$15].
Renton555 calls [$15].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qs, 5d, 6s ]
colechris checks.
Renton555 bets [$20].
Laskey calls [$20].
colechris calls [$20].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9s ]
colechris checks.
Renton555 bets [$50].
Laskey is all-In.
colechris folds.
Renton555 is all-In.

[joshuadzl]

#9
I think #9 was played rather poorly personally. Honestly, I'm kinda floored to see *you* play it this way because I think your input on hand analysis and chatting with you on IRC I put you way above this play.

Preflop, I don't like the limp/call. Shitty position and you're welcoming a ton of limpers to outflop you. Oh well, it gets worse.

You nail the flop beautifully. So what do you do? You bet $20 on a $60 pot into a board that has a possible straight draws and flush draws? What the hell are you thinking? Are you hoping they hit a flush and you catch up with a boat?

Turn the flush, and a possible straight hit you bet $50 into $120, another weak bet and get pushed into. If you won this hand, outside of phenominal reads (which you fail to mention), I think you got incredibly lucky. No offense bro, you played this one pretty poorly. May be time to cut back the tables while you refocus.

[DaNutsInYoEye]

I agree with joshuadzl. With the way you played it PF though, I think you need to push the flop. You don't slowplay when the pot is large. With the PF action, someone could very well have KK or AA and call your AI. You gave anyone with a flush draw the direct odds to call. Factor in implied odds and it's automatic.

[Renton]

#9
I think #9 was played rather poorly personally. Honestly, I'm kinda floored to see *you* play it this way because I think your input on hand analysis and chatting with you on IRC I put you way above this play.

Preflop, I don't like the limp/call. Shitty position and you're welcoming a ton of limpers to outflop you. Oh well, it gets worse.

You nail the flop beautifully. So what do you do? You bet $20 on a $60 pot into a board that has a possible straight draws and flush draws? What the hell are you thinking? Are you hoping they hit a flush and you catch up with a boat?

Turn the flush, and a possible straight hit you bet $50 into $120, another weak bet and get pushed into. If you won this hand, outside of phenominal reads (which you fail to mention), I think you got incredibly lucky. No offense bro, you played this one pretty poorly. May be time to cut back the tables while you refocus.

I think its possible you and dnutz missed something in this hand. This is .5/1 NL. I didn't limp; I cold called a very sizable UTG preflop raise. My possible concern with my preflop play is that I may not i've been lain proper implied odds to chase a set.

Post flop, I don't give a shit about straight and flush draws. I am up against pairs at LEAST 95% of the time here. Pairs can only make 1 card straights and flushes. My primary goal is to play this hand like it is (the nuts) and extract maximum value with minimum risk scaring the fish away.

Please reanalyse the hand and then give me your opinion again.

[DaNutsInYoEye]

I still maintain that you could have played it better. I think you're being too rigid with the range of hands you are putting your opponents on. I don't think you're giving enough consideration to other hands such as AKs. Yeah, you may have the nuts, but it doesn't mean you're not vulnerable. AA/KK/AQ call a push here often enough to make it worth while and at the same time protect your hand from the flush. The pot is already big so if you get folds then it's not a disaster. I think going for the check-raise is viable option, but I would hate to wiff on it in a pot this large and have a scare card come on the turn.

I like your weak-lead more HU than I do in a multi-way pot. The problem here is that there are two other players and the size of your bet is giving someone with a flush draw 4:1 to call. A possible overcall is nice with the weak lead, or possibly also with a check-raise, but I think it's getting a bit greedy. Again, with the pot already as big as it is, I think you should be more inclined to push out anyone that might be drawing.

Finally, if your flop bet gets called and another spade comes on the turn (which it did), it's hard to get away from your hand (which you didn't).

[joshuadzl]

You're right about preflop, we both did miss that. I still think a raise is necessary preflop from that position. Either way, it was done for you.

Post flop, if you don't give a shit about straight and flush draws on a board like this three ways, you're opening a huge leak in your game. 3 way, you are not looking at just pairs 95% of the time. You did not have the nuts on the turn.

Did you win the hand? Do you always slow play against draws? This is not a winning play, and you will lose money over time.

[mcatdog]

Hand #1: Are you really showing a profit by raising suited connectors after multiple limpers? More power to you if you are. I'm not. I'll raise them if it's folded to me and the blinds are pretty tight, but here I'd probably limp behind everyone. You can play a multiway pot in position with a hand that plays well multiway, against several players who probably suck. What's not to like about that?

Hand #5: I don't understand your play here at all. Are you hoping he catches something on the turn or the river? It seems unlikely that he'll pay you off unless he has an ace. And I think that the way you played it, reduces the chances of you getting his whole stack if he has trip aces and thought he was "slowplaying" you. A lot of people would be suspicious enough to just call your re-raise on the river, but they'd never be capable of actually folding an ace. If you'd made strong bets on the flop, the turn, and the river, you could guarantee that he'd get all-in with you, instead of having to hope he'll do the work for you.

Hand #6: I think this is fine since you have a nice draw, but you have to be careful just habitually raising these bets. I've found that when terrible players make a really small donk bet, they almost always fold to a raise, but if they bet more than half the pot, like this guy did, they usually have at least top pair and will call your all-in. I don't know how much fold equity you have here.

Hand #7: I find it hard to believe that you would check this flop if you had any pair, let alone JJ. If I were the villain I'd probably think you were full of shit too. Why not just make a continuation bet, you have outs if he calls you.

Hand #8: I love hands like this. I've been playing my overpairs the exact same way when I get check-raised on the flop by a player I don't respect. They usually end up bluffing off their stack on the turn and flipping over some of the dumbest hands you can imagine.

[Renton]

Did you win the hand? Do you always slow play against draws? This is not a winning play, and you will lose money over time.

I won the hand.

I don't always slow play agaisnt draws, but I don't always feel obliged to protect against them if I think it will jeopardize my chances of taking a stack. That was my reasoning behind the play, and in retrospect I think you and dnuts have a good point.

[Renton]

Hand #1: Are you really showing a profit by raising suited connectors after multiple limpers? More power to you if you are. I'm not. I'll raise them if it's folded to me and the blinds are pretty tight, but here I'd probably limp behind everyone. You can play a multiway pot in position with a hand that plays well multiway, against several players who probably suck. What's not to like about that?

Yes I find this very profitable. I probably do it something like once every 2-3 orbits and I think its a great play for someone with a tight image. And its enormously profitable in cases like Hand #1 where I hit the flop really really hard.

Hand #5: I don't understand your play here at all. Are you hoping he catches something on the turn or the river? It seems unlikely that he'll pay you off unless he has an ace. And I think that the way you played it, reduces the chances of you getting his whole stack if he has trip aces and thought he was "slowplaying" you. A lot of people would be suspicious enough to just call your re-raise on the river, but they'd never be capable of actually folding an ace. If you'd made strong bets on the flop, the turn, and the river, you could guarantee that he'd get all-in with you, instead of having to hope he'll do the work for you.

I was very displeased with my play of this hand. I didn't want to bet out the flop because it was very unlikely he hit this board. I should have bet the turn though definitely. As it were he was slow playing me too with weak trips and he paired his kicker on the river for a better boat. I can take a small amount of solace in the fact that he would have caught that boat no matter how I played the hand, but it still doesn't make the play correct. I got my money in dead which is never a good thing. It would have felt a lot better to get it in on the turn and then to get threeoutered.

Hand #6: I think this is fine since you have a nice draw, but you have to be careful just habitually raising these bets. I've found that when terrible players make a really small donk bet, they almost always fold to a raise, but if they bet more than half the pot, like this guy did, they usually have at least top pair and will call your all-in. I don't know how much fold equity you have here.

I think top pair weak kicker folds here, which is what I put him on. These medium-shorties are generally weak tight. They aren't like super shortstacks (<30bb) trying to gamble whenever, and they aren't as loose as full buys because they can't get paid off on chasing.

Hand #7: I find it hard to believe that you would check this flop if you had any pair, let alone JJ. If I were the villain I'd probably think you were full of shit too. Why not just make a continuation bet, you have outs if he calls you.

You don't think JJ ever checkraises here? I think JJ and TT are check-raising hands from some players in my spot. This player is smart, he isn't falling for an obvious c-bet line. Plus, his hand rates to be better than mine given the action preflop. This play really really worked to conceal my hand (not what I was going for but hey) when the gutshot hit on the turn.

I don't know why he kept betting into me on the river. He hat TT so I guess he thought we were splitting and tried to push me off.

Hand #8: I love hands like this. I've been playing my overpairs the exact same way when I get check-raised on the flop by a player I don't respect. They usually end up bluffing off their stack on the turn and flipping over some of the dumbest hands you can imagine.

He had 22 : (

[Miffed22001]

I think #9 was played rather poorly personally

I agree with joshuadzl

colechris raises [$5].
Renton555 calls [$5].
orrmazin1 folds.
Laskey raises [$20].

DO ppl open from utg at 100nl for 5bbs with 67s?
do they then reraise with JTs?
Where are the sooted cards here?
I dont see any. I see some big pps and perhaps AQ/AK. Pushing the flop might get the money in. I think this line renton uses will get it all in for sure. I dont see why rentons line is horrible, although his bet amounts suck. Id bet more looking dumb and liking the queen.
Arent we reading the board and not the preflop action?
How mnay times have you guys played full ring and been REraised preflop by 67s. For note, i never have been.
This hand is nicely played for me, only AKs from utg bothers me a lot here.

Hand1.
lots of money in by the turn. A ten kicker still good here? Or do these players grossly overplay an ace like this?
Hand2.
Just push.
hand3.
c/r line? its a low flop for your possible range?
hand 4.
with ace high id fold. WIth your hand id call.

[joshuadzl]

:rollseyes:

Thats because you don't play anything that isn't paired and doesn't spike. :P I can say I've seen many times two suited cards goto a flop like that, they play great 3 ways and can stack overpairs. I've seen all the scenarios at 100NL that you just described. And add AJ/AT to that list as well.

You can let people catch up for appropriate price if you want Miff, I personally am going to make them pay for it. That is at least, the way I like to play my game.

[Miffed22001]

:rollseyes:

Thats because you don't play anything that isn't paired and doesn't spike. :P I can say I've seen many times two suited cards goto a flop like that, they play great 3 ways and can stack overpairs. I've seen all the scenarios at 100NL that you just described. And add AJ/AT to that list as well.

You can let people catch up for appropriate price if you want Miff, I personally am going to make them pay for it. That is at least, the way I like to play my game.

ok
ill ask again
where is the action you describe in thsi hand?
It isnt
You might do it because you dont suck balls (much) fish dont. They make big raises with a predictable range of hands. STop giving credit where it isnt due.
btw
note this link
http://www.homepokergames.com/odds.php
then note the odds of hitting a flush draw from preflopand how much you have to call into this pot preflop.
Add implied odds and i dont think you get a winning play.
I remeber a UG thread of some guy who called a raise then it got reraised and called and he called 3 handed and flopped a nut flush. Yah he took 2 stacks. i dont think that happens often enough for it to be +ev. If you have the math by all means show me im wrong. Calling 15 into a 45 pot in hand 9 with sooted stuff is 3:1 on an 8.1:1 draw, that isnt a made hand. Then you have to raise in horrible position UTG or reraise in lp. Doesnt happen unless its an FTR'er 2+2er etc. No chance.

[joshuadzl]

The action is preflop. How much have you played $100NL? A lot. You know as well as I do AK-AT is probably here, as well as pocket pairs. And yes, maybe I am giving credit where credit isn't due. However, with the stack size at what it is to the flop, I am more than willing to bank on being wrong and taking down the pot there than letting someone possibly catch up with a better hand.

I understand preflop the odds to what you're paying and getting. My point is that I don't rely on all these fish playing text book poker and if one of them did get fancy I'm going to make them pay to catch up.

I don't assume my opponents are always retarded unless I have tons of hands on them. I give them benefit of the doubt and I make them pay to catch up. I'm completely content with a $60 pot at $100NL. I'm willing to lose a bit of my total pot to ensure someone doesn't catch up.

[joshuadzl]

Also, $100NL is an entry level. It isn't a medium like $50NL. I think the players could be considered worse at $100NL than at $50NL.

[Miffed22001]

The action is preflop. How much have you played $100NL? A lot. You know as well as I do AK-AT is probably here, as well as pocket pairs. And yes, maybe I am giving credit where credit isn't due. However, with the stack size at what it is to the flop, I am more than willing to bank on being wrong and taking down the pot there than letting someone possibly catch up with a better hand.

I understand preflop the odds to what you're paying and getting. My point is that I don't rely on all these fish playing text book poker and if one of them did get fancy I'm going to make them pay to catch up.

I don't assume my opponents are always retarded unless I have tons of hands on them. I give them benefit of the doubt and I make them pay to catch up. I'm completely content with a $60 pot at $100NL. I'm willing to lose a bit of my total pot to ensure someone doesn't catch up.

maximisation
id rather lose one or two pots to gross misreads and players making non-textbook plays than lose the maximisation i normally get on my hands and that renton demonstartes here.
Your point about sooted cards is valid, i wont dismiss that, although the math sucks a lot. However, donks are donks, but they are predicatble donks.
Your playing scared if you over push this flop.

[gabe]

i like all the hands i didnt mention

#3 bet the turn
#4 seems fine, you dont have to bet the flop though, but i probably do anyway
#5 bet the flop
#7 raise more preflop and just bet the flop. getting fancy is unnecessary. if he is a shark, he knows you have nothing on the flop because good players would take this line with absolutely nothing.

[Miffed22001]

The action is preflop. How much have you played $100NL? A lot. You know as well as I do AK-AT is probably here, as well as pocket pairs. And yes, maybe I am giving credit where credit isn't due. However, with the stack size at what it is to the flop, I am more than willing to bank on being wrong and taking down the pot there than letting someone possibly catch up with a better hand.

I understand preflop the odds to what you're paying and getting. My point is that I don't rely on all these fish playing text book poker and if one of them did get fancy I'm going to make them pay to catch up.

I don't assume my opponents are always retarded unless I have tons of hands on them. I give them benefit of the doubt and I make them pay to catch up. I'm completely content with a $60 pot at $100NL. I'm willing to lose a bit of my total pot to ensure someone doesn't catch up.

Put each person in this hand on cards preflop.
Unless party is insanely different from other sites then these ranges are predicatble, utg 5bbs raise, cold call, 4x reraise to 20bbs, which is why i hate your line of pushing trips. Once you see these ranges i think the turn bringing the flush is inconsequential to our hand. If anything UTG may have had sooted big cards eg AQs/AKs but he folds and from the way this hand is played Renton therefore looks the most likely person to be holding scs or a pp and hence flopped set/flushdraw postflop. I admit to the possibility of our reraiser holding AKs but any two sooted cards doesnt fit the typical range for me here. Giving odds to chase is a mistake at most times but you have to generate that information from action and the information your giving me about a flush draw just doesnt seem to exist in this pot. Add to that the fact AKs may push over rentons flop bet with a decent amount of fold euity and outs to the best hand (not knowing of course renton has trip queens)

[joshuadzl]

The action is preflop. How much have you played $100NL? A lot. You know as well as I do AK-AT is probably here, as well as pocket pairs. And yes, maybe I am giving credit where credit isn't due. However, with the stack size at what it is to the flop, I am more than willing to bank on being wrong and taking down the pot there than letting someone possibly catch up with a better hand.

I understand preflop the odds to what you're paying and getting. My point is that I don't rely on all these fish playing text book poker and if one of them did get fancy I'm going to make them pay to catch up.

I don't assume my opponents are always retarded unless I have tons of hands on them. I give them benefit of the doubt and I make them pay to catch up. I'm completely content with a $60 pot at $100NL. I'm willing to lose a bit of my total pot to ensure someone doesn't catch up.

maximisation
id rather lose one or two pots to gross misreads and players making non-textbook plays than lose the maximisation i normally get on my hands and that renton demonstartes here.
Your point about sooted cards is valid, i wont dismiss that, although the math sucks a lot. However, donks are donks, but they are predicatble donks.
Your playing scared if you over push this flop.

We're not just losing pots, we're losing full buy ins here. I'm not saying push over this flop, he still has $80 in front of him. Bet 80% of the pot. Still leaves him with chips to push on the turn if you want.

My point is this, we're risking a $100 loss for a $60 gain. I don't like that move on this board 3way. Heads up is different. If there was no flush draw and only a straight draw, okay. But there are technically two draws one out there, one unlikely, one very possible. Like I said earlier, at $100NL I can see someone calling AX-T suited NO problem. And we just set them up for perfect calling odds down the line. I don't think I'm losing money on the way I play this hand.

Now, if I'm playing with someone who I'm familiar with, or both players I'm familiar with, I can probably know going to the flop that they're not playing AXs. But as I said earlier, we don't have reads on these players or at least, Renton hasn't lead us to beleive he has any on them.

[joshuadzl]

The action is preflop. How much have you played $100NL? A lot. You know as well as I do AK-AT is probably here, as well as pocket pairs. And yes, maybe I am giving credit where credit isn't due. However, with the stack size at what it is to the flop, I am more than willing to bank on being wrong and taking down the pot there than letting someone possibly catch up with a better hand.

I understand preflop the odds to what you're paying and getting. My point is that I don't rely on all these fish playing text book poker and if one of them did get fancy I'm going to make them pay to catch up.

I don't assume my opponents are always retarded unless I have tons of hands on them. I give them benefit of the doubt and I make them pay to catch up. I'm completely content with a $60 pot at $100NL. I'm willing to lose a bit of my total pot to ensure someone doesn't catch up.

Put each person in this hand on cards preflop.
Unless party is insanely different from other sites then these ranges are predicatble, utg 5bbs raise, cold call, 4x reraise to 20bbs, which is why i hate your line of pushing trips. Once you see these ranges i think the turn bringing the flush is inconsequential to our hand. If anything UTG may have had sooted big cards eg AQs/AKs but he folds and from the way this hand is played Renton therefore looks the most likely person to be holding scs or a pp and hence flopped set/flushdraw postflop. I admit to the possibility of our reraiser holding AKs but any two sooted cards doesnt fit the typical range for me here. Giving odds to chase is a mistake at most times but you have to generate that information from action and the information your giving me about a flush draw just doesnt seem to exist in this pot. Add to that the fact AKs may push over rentons flop bet with a decent amount of fold euity and outs to the best hand (not knowing of course renton has trip queens)

I still hold to my hand ranges on this. AK/ATs is very possible. I don't see a lot of standard overplaying of AK at $100NL where they're pushing over the top of a missed flop, at least not a Stars but I can see the potential there. I still find it very possible to put said players on the flush. I can put the players on these ranges of hands and on top of that, I'm giving the correct price to chase to it.

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to say it is probable I'm not maximizing my profits with players I don't have effecient HH's on. If I don't know the player, I'm fighting that possible flush draw. When I am wrong, and I get stacked, its 100% my fault because I played bad poker by letting them catch up and playing boards this way - it will happen.

[Renton]

But there are technically two draws one out there, one unlikely, one very possible. Like I said earlier, at $100NL I can see someone calling AX-T suited NO problem.

Straight draw: 1:1000000 that it helps someone
Flush draw: 1:100 (thats being generous) that it helps someone.

Even at these stakes, you don't see people call off 20bb preflop with any suited hand but AJ+. This means that we are only realistically up against three (!) holdings out of the range of our villain (which I assume to be AA (6), KK (6), JJ (6), TT (6), AK (12), AKs (4), AQ (12), AQs (4), AJ (12), AJs (4)) . 3 out of 72 possible holdings.

[Miffed22001]

I still hold to my hand ranges on this. AK/ATs is very possible. I don't see a lot of standard overplaying of AK at $100NL where they're pushing over the top of a missed flop, at least not a Stars but I can see the potential there. I still find it very possible to put said players on the flush. I can put the players on these ranges of hands and on top of that, I'm giving the correct price to chase to it.

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to say it is probable I'm not maximizing my profits with players I don't have effecient HH's on. If I don't know the player, I'm fighting that possible flush draw. When I am wrong, and I get stacked, its 100% my fault because I played bad poker by letting them catch up and playing boards this way - it will happen.

My mind boggles at how badly you can misread a single hand of poker. You have taken one look at the board and crapped yourself because you see coloured cards and have TOTALLY IGNORED anything anybody has said about preflop action and what the preflop action tells us. As you keep telling me this is 100nl not 25nl so yeah, show me a preflop hand range.

and why the heck do you need HHs to know how someone plays? Play what is in front of you. Its not exactly rocket science for anybody to put these 3 players to a range! You dont need PT here ffs

[joshuadzl]

I still hold to my hand ranges on this. AK/ATs is very possible. I don't see a lot of standard overplaying of AK at $100NL where they're pushing over the top of a missed flop, at least not a Stars but I can see the potential there. I still find it very possible to put said players on the flush. I can put the players on these ranges of hands and on top of that, I'm giving the correct price to chase to it.

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to say it is probable I'm not maximizing my profits with players I don't have effecient HH's on. If I don't know the player, I'm fighting that possible flush draw. When I am wrong, and I get stacked, its 100% my fault because I played bad poker by letting them catch up and playing boards this way - it will happen.

My mind boggles at how badly you can misread a single hand of poker. You have taken one look at the board and crapped yourself because you see coloured cards and have TOTALLY IGNORED anything anybody has said about preflop action and what the preflop action tells us. As you keep telling me this is 100nl not 25nl so yeah, show me a preflop hand range.

and why the heck do you need HHs to know how someone plays? Play what is in front of you. Its not exactly rocket science for anybody to put these 3 players to a range! You dont need PT here ffs

Once again, my gripe was not betting larger on the flop. I told you I can put the action preflop on AKs-ATs from said player. I never said to push. My point was to bet him off his draw, if he is on one. If he isn't on one, he is probably calling it anyways since obviously he went with his hand the whole way down.

My point on the hand history portion is that if I don't know the player, I'll make him pay to possibly catch up incase he is a player who plays that range of hands and is on the draw. I have no idea if this is a player who deposited $100 to play a ring game for the night or what. So I'll put him at what I consider a mediocre $100NL player until he proves otherwise. I can put him on a range of hands incuding any pocket pair and Ax suited through T. No, you don't need PT to play any player or table time with them. I do change my play accordingly though. If I don't have any idea what kind of player this is, this is the way I play.

[joshuadzl]

And with that said, I will say that yes I can be way off here. My online preflop reads are not perfect obviously, but this is what I have seen people show down during my time at $100NL even to raises that large.

[dpe8598]

I agree w/ Josh. You bet hard here simply because anybody who calls that 20 dollar bet will likely call a larger bet. Most likely they are drawing or they are really strong. Either way you are ahead right now and if they are going to call more, bet more. You also want to make someone pay to backdoor you if possible.