Critical decision in rebuy MTT

[Fjaman]

Here´s an interesting situation that arouse about 2.5h into a rebuy tournament…
I was on the button with KQ offsuit with about 12K in chips with the blinds at 300-600 and a 75$ ante, a slightly loose player opened for 3xBB from middle position and i called the raise. The flop came Qc 9h 3d and the preflop raisor came in for a continuation size bet of just under half the pot...
Whats your move?

[WildBobAA]

First, I fold this PF.

Second, push.

[TanO]

Depends on how many chips the original raiser has, but given your read most of the time reraise for 3-4x his continuation bet.

[ripjohngotti]

First, I fold this PF.

Second, push.

Love the signature, i always say "nice hand" even when they do some moronic move that probably happened there.

Right calling a raisae with kq from the button with that flop what more can you ask for. But as you stated youd fold kq which i agree with, this loose guy can pick up a aa kk aq ak just like anyone else, thats why i hate playing k/q and aj to raises.

But this is where luck comes in and it either makes or breaks your tournament, id fold preflop.[/u]

[Fjaman]

I usually fold this hand pf to a raise but my state of mind in this tournament was not stable, i had been up to over 20K just 10-15 hands earlier, i lost an all in to a shortstack when i was 90% favorite, and all my raises thereafter with hands like 88, AQ, AJ from late position was met by reraises and rereraises which prompted me to get rid of them, this led to me playing this hand against a raise and thereby loosing all my chips when i turned upp a set of nines after my push...
Bottom line: Disipline is important!

[gabe]

if you are going to play the hand with 20bb, you cant fold on this flop

[fjuanl]

if you are going to play the hand with 20bb, you cant fold on this flop

[soupie]

I am not so sure this is a preflop fold always especially against a loose player. You are getting 1.83 to 1 on you call preflop with the blinds left to act. You will have positional advantage throughout the hand and a fairly decent hand. You also have substantial implied odds if you hit a monster.

With a 8m stack I wouldnt be so quick to discount this opportunity.

Something to think about.

[johnny_fish]

Why push? WA/WB scenario right? +position..

[lambchopdc]

First, I fold this PF.

thats why i hate playing k/q and aj to raises

id fold preflop.

I usually fold this hand pf to a raise

Weak/tight much?? Just of curiosity...why are you guys so afraid of flops?

I always call here. You have position and a strong hand against a loose raiser. Post-flop, there are no draws to worry you here so a push isn't necessary. The pot on the flop was around 4500 so i'm guessing he leads for 2k? You have 10.2k left.....I pop it to 6k, probably call a push, if he just calls, i'm probably allin on any non-ace turn. With your stack, no way i'm getting away from this flop.

Side note - God damnit FTR, can we make a rule that every person that posts "fold preflop" when someone asks a postflop question gets a strike????

[midas06]

Fold preflop

[Renton]

fold preflop would be better advice if this were a cash game.

EVEN then we're up against a loose raiser so its not bad. In a cash game I'd probably 3bet here.

[unidentity]

Weak/tight much?? Just of curiosity...why are you guys so afraid of flops?

I always call here. You have position and a strong hand against a loose raiser. Post-flop, there are no draws to worry you here so a push isn't necessary. The pot on the flop was around 4500 so i'm guessing he leads for 2k? You have 10.2k left.....I pop it to 6k, probably call a push, if he just calls, i'm probably allin on any non-ace turn. With your stack, no way i'm getting away from this pot[/quote]

I agree, find out where you are in the hand. If he comes back over the top of you re-evaluate and move from there.

[JeffreyGB]

Side note - God damnit FTR, can we make a rule that every person that posts "fold preflop" when someone asks a postflop question gets a strike????

I support this if the person in question offers nothing but "fold preflop". If they add that to an otherwise decent post about how to play the postflop scenario, then that's something different.

Then again, I don't know that I support strikes of any sort on legit attempts to provide strategy...so I guess I take that back. Agree with the point though - saying nothing but "Fold preflop" is of little help!

[chardrian]

The fold preflop line is being called out so much because so many people remember their QKs being busted by AK,AQ, etc.

QK is right around a top ten hand to me so I don't see folding this hand preflop against (key words coming up) "a slightly loose player." Depending on your read, a call or even a raise is a fine play here preflop.

Postflop - it's difficult to say without a read. If he will continue to fire on the turn, a call on the flop is fine and a push on the turn. If he'll give up on the turn, then a raise on the flop is good as he might think you are just trying to steal.

Last note - if you did raise and ended up all-in on this flop and were dominated (e.g. AQ,KK-AA) then you played fine. Sometimes, expecially late in tourneys you just don't have enough of a stack to be able to make "great laydowns."

[WildBobAA]

I like a push better than a call here PF. 1/6 of your stack is a lot to be calling off when you're going to miss the flop 2/3 of the time and be forced to fold to his cbet.

If villian has the same stack as you, you definatly have some FE. But we are missing that important piece of information.

[gabe]

I like a push better than a call here PF. 1/6 of your stack is a lot to be calling off when you're going to miss the flop 2/3 of the time and be forced to fold to his cbet.

If villian has the same stack as you, you definatly have some FE. But we are missing that important piece of information.

i agree with this. if the guy is a loose raiser but not necessarily a loose caller, push is so much better than call

[zenbitz]

Another reason not to call with KQo is that blinds have odds to call. KQs is more of a calling hand.

"somewhat loose" is not a good enough term. Note that if he's open raising A-rag he is a favorite against you KQ. If you think he's stealing, re-raise him pre-flop... but I think KQo is a pretty terrible hand to play table cop with. You are crushed by AK/AQ/KK/QQ and behind AX and all pairs. It's the last 2 that kill you.

Do you really want to see a flop with KQ vs AT?

[Renton]

Do you really want to see a flop with KQ vs AT?

Dead preflop money makes non dominated behind situations such as KQvsAT playable and desirable. KQ is a far more playable hand than AT. Sure AT is like a 4% favorite or something, but thats insignificant. If you are an aggressive player, your posflop edge should more than make up for this deficiency. And even if you are up against AK, you are oftentimes still getting the right price to see the flop.

[zenbitz]

Do you really want to see a flop with KQ vs AT?

Dead preflop money makes non dominated behind situations such as KQvsAT playable and desirable. KQ is a far more playable hand than AT. Sure AT is like a 4% favorite or something, but thats insignificant. If you are an aggressive player, your posflop edge should more than make up for this deficiency. And even if you are up against AK, you are oftentimes still getting the right price to see the flop.

Huh? It's 60-40! ATo vs KQo, no matching suits. KQs is a little better, 55:45 if he doesn't have the A of your suit.

Here is another way to look at it: If it's good for YOU to play with KQ vs AT... how much better is it for HIM! Talking heads up, shortish stacks here - so only a truely weak player would not take a pair of Ts to the felt with AT.

Pot odds are well and good, but I would eschew ev ~neutral situations when I am not desperate, and yet don't have chips to spew.

[chardrian]

Huh? It's 60-40! ATo vs KQo, no matching suits. KQs is a little better, 55:45 if he doesn't have the A of your suit.

Pot odds are well and good, but I would eschew ev ~neutral situations when I am not desperate, and yet don't have chips to spew.

It's only 60/40 or 55/45 if you are both all-in preflop.

I think what renton was saying is that even with QK versus Ax postflop, your position can often take the pot down, damn the odds.

[zenbitz]

But stacks are too short to play post flop!
Assuming 9 handed, 75/300/600, Hero has stack of 12K, M=7.6!!!

I would open-raise KQo here in a heart beat, and certainly re-raise a button raise from the blinds (unless the guy is really tight)... but calling on the button here against a slightly loose MP raise?

Maybe I am just assuming that he is betting 90% of flops no matter what he raised with, I just don't think I am getting checked-to very often UNLESS... UNLESS you significantly outstack villain. Then I am (more) confident he won't bluff into me on the flop. And you can't call him even if you know he misses 2/3rds of the time, because he' usually going to have an ace.... and now you are a 3:1 dog on a blank flop.