How do I approach this problem to my game?

[Hardshi]

I started taking the MTT's more seriously as I think I have a good temperament for it - but several nights in a row I busted out with donk plays.

In this one I am cruising, happy and picking up the odd pot here and there to keep me double the average stack when this:

#Game No : 4090044743
***** Hand History for Game 4090044743 *****
NL Texas Hold'em Trny:22638029 Level:6 Blinds(200/400) - Tuesday, April 25, 16:02:25 ET 2006
Table $15K Gtd.(673370) Table #50 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 5: sportsmand ( $11465 )
Seat 8: mirusaer ( $14016 )
Seat 9: Hardshi ( $15226 )
Seat 2: competator ( $1672 )
Seat 4: PokerBuz19 ( $2880 )
Seat 7: x5mfs ( $4864 )
Seat 1: JHYDE21 ( $11020 )
Seat 3: m_tommy500 ( $7870 )
Seat 10: Cactus_Kurt ( $15431 )
Trny:22638029 Level:6
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hardshi [ Jd Ac ]
Cactus_Kurt folds.
JHYDE21 folds.
competator folds.
m_tommy500 folds.
PokerBuz19 folds.
sportsmand folds.
x5mfs folds.
mirusaer raises [600].
Hardshi calls [400].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5h, Ad, Qc ]
mirusaer checks.
Hardshi bets [1000].
mirusaer calls [1000].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2c ]
mirusaer checks.
Hardshi bets [2000].
mirusaer raises [5304].
Hardshi is all-In [11426]
mirusaer is all-In [6912]
** Dealing River ** [ 4s ]
mirusaer shows [ Qh, As ] two pairs, aces and queens.
Hardshi shows [ Jd, Ac ] a pair of aces.
Hardshi wins 1210 chips from side pot #1 with a pair of aces.
mirusaer wins 28032 chips from the main pot with two pairs, aces and queens.
Game #4090056307 starts.

Why did I do it?

I mean it's almost an uncontrollable urge to get my chips in when I know I'm beat after the flop.

This is becoming a problem for me as I think I have an average all round game which is acing the SNG's at the $11 level (60% itm) - I know the opposition is not spectacular at this level but it's what my bankroll will afford.

In 15 MTT's I've made the final table twice 9,3 but I can't seem to control this blowout thing?

Can anyone help me please

[Hardshi]

I should add that it's like a bluffing thing - I am positive he is bluffing and has nothing or a pocket pair.

[Hartlin]

I had the same problem last night. I started taking at least 15 seconds before every play I made. Before I raised or called, I'd ask myself WHY I was and the range I put him on. I called with TPGK when I said to my buddy that he had AJ, which he did. So I just take my time a lot more now.

[chardrian]

This example is not a major donk move. You didnt need to lose, but making this play TP decent kicker is much better than doing so with a hand like 99.

Ok - the major donk blow up is probably the biggest hurdle for any MTTer to overcome in order to consistently do very well.

To me, there are two keys to avoiding the donk blow up.

1) Get your finger off the damn mouse. As Hartlin just said, take your time with every hand that you are in. Because so much of MTTs is spent just folding preflop, the urge to become super aggressive at all costs with any hand that you play becomes huge. When you actually hit top pair, that urge to be aggressive is even greater. You bet before really thinking it through. And when you are called you IMMEDIATELY realize you were behind the whole way. But it takes the other person's call for that over-aggressive haze to clear up. So sit on your hands, lock them behind your back, whatever. But just try giving yourself at least 5 seconds EVERY SINGLE time you are in a hand next tourney.

2) Remember what reads are. Reads are plays based on what your OPPONENT has done before. A read is not and should never be based on HOW YOU would play the hand if you were your opponent. (In this case this part isn't as relevant since almost any opp will call in with top two pair there - but where this does come into play is when you make that "tricky" move against an opp who isn't smart enough to realize that "tricky" moves exist. Besides bad beats, my most common exit in MTTs is still because I make a good read on what my opponent has, but a horrible read on what s/he will actually do with that hand.

[chardrian]

As for your actual play in this hand.

You are only beating A6-AT and/or a bluff. I think you played it fine until the turn. Take your time there - put him on a real range. Sounds to me like your range there woulda been basically AQ/AK. Trust your read, and fold with lots of chips left.

[Hardshi]

Thanks Chardrian, I was reading your blog earlier today and enjoyed it. I thought I would mix mine up with some stuff other than poker as well - seems to make it more enjoyable.

Yep - I was fine until the turn but the red mist descends. This is my problem.

I have only been playing poker for about eight months and I started out at the 25/50c limit hold em until I started to understand the game. It took me about five months to become a winning player at low limit. Now I'd have no problem at taking a seat at .50/1.0 game and I've had good sessions at 1/2.

Then when I discovered NL I realised this suited my nature much more as I was more of a cautious type that would wait for a decent hand to play aggressively and feel comfortable with it. I'm patient - so MTT seem ideal for me.

The problem seems to be that I can't draw the line between being outdrawn, betting for value and realising that I am beat.

Slowly it is starting to dawn on me when I can see obvious flushes/straight draws that I need to let go but because of my style of play - only playing premium hands with the occasional limp of a nice suited connector or pair hoping for a set.

What is frustrating me is that in my blog today I wrote about realising you are beat in a hand and then go and do exactly the same thing over again.

Since my first post I played a $22 SNG and $11 SNG finishing 3rd and 1st respectively - so I know I have a reasonable game {much of it learnt here I might add - thanks rippytide) but I can't seem to accept that people are not bluffing when I only hold top pair.

Thinking about it whilst writing this I guess that exactly because of the nature of my play - I need to accept that I am going to get busted out unless I lay down these types of hands in the face of serious betting - because I am never likely to flop a straight or two pair playing these hands.

Maybe I should open up my game slightly so that I take on a bit of risk - but if I keep winning with such tight play - opening up when it bcomes short handed - why bleed chips?

My read was that this guy was a solid player - but I still did the above regardless, thinking I would bluff him out of it I guess.

Whereas, I made a good read just a couple of hands before as I had seen this guy do the same move a few hands before:

#Game No : 4089835847
***** Hand History for Game 4089835847 *****
NL Texas Hold'em Trny:22638029 Level:4 Blinds(100/200) - Tuesday, April 25, 15:34:52 ET 2006
Table $15K Gtd.(673370) Table #50 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: crystaldpaul ( $2362 )
Seat 3: pilot48 ( $3726 )
Seat 5: sportsmand ( $4364 )
Seat 7: MIKER7504 ( $4455 )
Seat 8: mirusaer ( $7430 )
Seat 9: Hardshi ( $8721 )
Seat 2: competator ( $11672 )
Seat 4: PokerBuz19 ( $1690 )
Seat 6: jodystar1 ( $4282 )
Trny:22638029 Level:4
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hardshi [ Ad Kh ]
crystaldpaul folds.
competator folds.
pilot48 calls [200].
PokerBuz19 calls [200].
sportsmand calls [200].
jodystar1 folds.
MIKER7504 is all-In [4455]
mirusaer folds.
Hardshi is all-In [8521]
pilot48 folds.
PokerBuz19 folds.
sportsmand folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8h, Ac, 3c ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7h ]
** Dealing River ** [ Qh ]
Hardshi shows [ Ad, Kh ] a pair of aces.
MIKER7504 shows [ Js, Kc ] high card ace.
Hardshi wins 4266 chips from side pot #1 with a pair of aces.
Hardshi wins 9610 chips from the main pot with a pair of aces.
Player MIKER7504 finished in 1141 place
Game #4089842357 starts.

Thanks for the advice - I will try and sit on my hands a bit more

[Hardshi]

I reread your post and I have something to say about this.

Several times in my life I have made decisions which, whilst seeming "donk plays" at the time, actually turned out to be good moves.

This is the crux of the issue.

I need to trust my reads - IF I give myself time to make the read.

I am making the plays way too fast. You are right. I should be folding here irrespective of what he has. It was just that that big bet to me meant he was weak and wanted to steal it so I reraised him all in. I guess he played it well - I thought he was a good player.

I have to learn to slow down definitely. Yep - if you are going to raise the bigger stack by this much then you genuinely have a hand.

OK - Lesson learned. Thankyou.

[jdubs]

It's funny, I was about to post a similar hand when I read yours! couple of nights ago, I am in the 3rd hour of a R&A, doing ok with an average stack..about 12 K i think..I'm on the button, i guy limps in MP, I have J A o, and raise it up 4x bb, the sb folds the BB calls, limper folds. Flop come A 6 Q, I bet about 2/3 pot, he comes over the top, and instantly I pushed back over him... If I had though for just 10 seconds, I would have probably realized I was beat, and folded it, but this urge to insta call was strong, I couldnt stop it! Of course he turned over AK, and I was gone- 3 solid hours of work wasted, all because, in this case I didnt give the blind credit for a hand.. really stupid, but that has happened to me before- I raise a blind with a hand , they call ( or raise) and I end up losing chips, because I think in the back of my mind "they are the blind, they must not have anything"..lol. This is a bad leak for me, and taking time as char suggested, would be a way to stop it, along with realizing that sometimes, the blind DOES have (or hit) a hand...

[shysti]

I am finally overcoming this urge myself and I think it is crucial to do so. I realize now that I take more time to make plays I am becoming even more patient and making it deeper into tournies.

But I think it is an interesting observation, it's like your subconcious takes over your hand and body and you call even though its like your mind is a complete blank while the hand is going on, that is until it's over and your busted, then the hindsight kicks in!

Damn that evil subconcious!

Edit: for a visual recap of what I just said, take a look at my avatar, your subconcious is bruce on the right, and here you come trying to subdue your subconcious on the left...

[Hardshi]

This is frustrating the hell out of me.

Halfway again through a 450 player $22 buy in on party and I get QQ in mid position - blinds are 200 so I raise to 1000.

BB raises 5136 or something like that and once again I reraise all in without even thinking about it.

It was just such a big raise that I guessed wrongly that they were trying to push me off my hand.

Not that they thought "these donks will reraise all in without thinking".

So once again I bust out of a tourney that I had absolutely no need to do and would easily have placed halfway in the money if I had just folded here.

They flipped over AA if you are at all mildly interested .

Anyway - so I go back to playing the $11 SNG's and continue to place.

I suppose the only good thing is that I am making the money from my SNG wins to enter the tournies and maintain the balance. But it is very frustrating to know that I could continually be building my bankroll by eliminating these donkey plays from my MTT game.

It's like two hours of play into the game and I am feeling really good when this urge to double up no matter what overtakes me.

The funny thing is that these plays are reflecting in my SNG game where I am becoming far less aggressive and placing more often although not taking down the top spot as consistently.

I need to read Zen or something and find that happy medium

[elanto]

man you seem to be placing every time on SNG's so just stick with them

[Hardshi]

Dunno - How do I stop this?

#Game No : 4143194805
***** Hand History for Game 4143194805 *****
NL Texas Hold'em Trny:22880223 Level:6 Blinds(200/400) - Sunday, April 30, 16:09:49 ET 2006
Table $15K Gtd Rebuy(679464) Table #57 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: Hardshi ( $29366 )
Seat 2: hitinlicks ( $8665 )
Seat 3: Dale8111 ( $19862 )
Seat 4: supervol ( $24611 )
Seat 6: Tresspaser ( $50379 )
Seat 8: Polo_Ross ( $4320 )
Seat 5: arman19 ( $44166 )
Seat 7: Hooo3 ( $45282 )
Seat 9: Messowitz ( $8749 )
Seat 10: berbo111 ( $16286 )
Trny:22880223 Level:6
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hardshi [ 7d 4d ]
hitinlicks folds.
Dale8111 folds.
supervol folds.
arman19 folds.
Tresspaser folds.
Hooo3 raises [1500].
Polo_Ross folds.
Messowitz calls [1500].
berbo111 folds.
Hardshi calls [1100].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kh, 7c, 7s ]
Hardshi checks.
Hooo3 bets [2025].
Messowitz calls [2025].
Hardshi raises [6000].
Hooo3 is all-In [41757]
Messowitz is all-In [5224]
Hardshi is all-In [21866]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ks ]
** Dealing River ** [ 8s ]
Hardshi shows [ 7d, 4d ] a full house, Sevens full of kings.
Hooo3 shows [ Ad, Kc ] a full house, Kings full of sevens.
Messowitz shows [ Ah, 7h ] a full house, Sevens full of kings.
Hooo3 wins 15916 chips from side pot #2 with a full house, Kings full of sevens.
Hooo3 wins 41234 chips from side pot #1 with a full house, Kings full of sevens.
Hooo3 wins 26447 chips from the main pot with a full house, Kings full of sevens.
Player Messowitz finished in 880 place
Player Hardshi finished in 879 place

It goes on....

[givememyleg]

Unlucky flop, unlucky turn.

I understand your odds to call preflop were big but you also have to include position when calling this. You're OOP for the remainder of the hand, and 74sooted isn't a strong hand. I would have probably folded preflop.

Check raising here gives away a strong hand. I would have lead out. Someone with 88+ might even think his hand is still good and at least called. I understand the only hands that beat you right now are 75+ or KK... but KK is possible since Hooo3 raised 4x bb... I am not so sure if you can actually let this go but look how big your stack will be if you fold this.

I think because you included the results it is impacting my reoly here, even if I don't want it to..

[Miffed22001]

on hand 1 im either reraising half my stack or all in or else i go bust there too.
If you get dealt AJ in the bb HU you take it to the river on that flop unless your playing an absolute rock.

[zenbitz]

I actually got in a whole half day of MTT yesterday, and I admit these blind wars are killing me.

(this one was actually a SND)
I busted out of 1 tourney getting KK in the BB, all fold to SB who checks. I just check behind because at this stage, I need to double up), and I figure he has junk. Flop comes 77X. I bet - he raises - i think, could he have a 7? I push, he calls. 72o. SHA-ZAM.

In a 180-person I was in 1st with 14 left. I lose 3 straight 60:40s pre-flop, including 1 for 1/2 my chips, but I am still down to like 4th only.

Lost 1/2 my chips when a reasonably aggro guy open-raises from BU. I push from SB with AT. He calls with KJo!!! Spikes a J and I am cut off my pedestal.

Same guy open-raise from the SB (he now stacks me by 20% or so). I re-raise from BB with KJs he instal-calls. I am worried. Flop comes J52 rainbow. He bets I push (!!?!) (Ms were about 15 here) he flps over.... QQ! I finish in 12th.

My problem is that I flat out do not believe anyone has squat in a BSB war with reasonably large blinds.

[Hardshi]

I think these may have just been unlucky plays and I should stop beating myself up.

Yesterday I played a 50 $22 on party and took second so I'm reasonably confident that my game is OK even if it can be improved huge amounts. I guess this is all part of the learning process and folding more often definitely seems to be helping my game.

[Rorgg]

The 74s hand I'd have stayed away from... you have a big raise, a call of the raise, and you're out of position. It's just not worth it.

But once you were in the hand and flopped the set, you were doomed (which is another reason not to play 74s =) ).