I just got pwned..interesting play

[shysti]

I viewed the two players to my left as weak, they open limped a lot of pots, stayed in with marginal hands. I picked up this hand and well look what happened, my question is, is his play correct here? Making that smooth call, and was I wrong for pushing after he reraised me?

PokerStars Game #4821657937: Tournament #24130775, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2006/05/03 - 15:21:46 (ET)
Table '24130775 10' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: seagrass1 (1200 in chips)
Seat 2: Jonh26 (805 in chips)
Seat 3: punkslapper (2550 in chips)
Seat 4: iansmitty (4585 in chips)
Seat 5: Tapsman (3375 in chips)
Seat 6: shysti (2515 in chips)
Seat 7: Ralvis (2930 in chips)
Seat 8: Karen222222 (8275 in chips)
Seat 9: aapple999 (2215 in chips)
iansmitty: posts small blind 25
Tapsman: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to shysti [Qh Ad]
shysti: raises 125 to 175
Ralvis: calls 175
Karen222222: calls 175
aapple999: folds
seagrass1: folds
Jonh26: folds
punkslapper: folds
iansmitty: calls 150
Tapsman: folds
*** FLOP *** [Qc 5d 8s]
iansmitty: checks
shysti: bets 1000
Ralvis: raises 1000 to 2000
Karen222222: folds
iansmitty: folds
shysti: raises 340 to 2340 and is all-in
Ralvis: calls 340
shysti said, "nice"
*** TURN *** [Qc 5d 8s] [6h]
*** RIVER *** [Qc 5d 8s 6h] [Ks]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
shysti: shows [Qh Ad] (a pair of Queens)
Ralvis: shows [Kh Kc] (three of a kind, Kings)
Ralvis collected 5430 from pot

[chardrian]

his play looks fine to me except for the minraise on the flop.

just cuz he limps a lot of hands does not necessarily mean that lots of people will call your open-raise UTG.

You were screwed after that flop (although your overbet made that screwage absolute).

His minraise was bad but relatively unimportant. He should either call and hope for an overcall or just push.

[drmcboy]

his smooth call pre flop is terrible IMO. If he was the BB and it was heads up, MAYBE, but he's risking playing KK 3-4 way.

You can't fold coming back getting 4/1, unless he shows you a set. In theory you could bet a little lower and maybe get away on the flop, but against a weak player who could do this with KQ you probably have to call.

[gabe]

his smooth call pre flop is terrible IMO. If he was the BB and it was heads up, MAYBE, but he's risking playing KK 3-4 way.

since people are so much likely to go broke with top pair in tournaments, is smooth calling really that bad?

i'm not saying its good or bad, just thinking out loud

[chardrian]

his smooth call pre flop is terrible IMO. If he was the BB and it was heads up, MAYBE, but he's risking playing KK 3-4 way.

I am starting to rethink this.

You get AA and KK so infrequently during a tourney and having those hands double you up is so valuable that I think it might be worth the risk to have your KK cracked. Smooth call here and you can get away from an A flop pretty easily (which although we always think it happens all the time with KK, it really doesnt happen that often). With a non-A flop you might have been cracked, but again not usually and now you will have a decent chance of one of your opps having a bit of the flop and you destacking them.

Very player dependent, but this early in a fishy tourney like the $4.40 I don't mind the smooth call preflop/drop the hammer post-flop play too much.

[chardrian]

guess gabe beat me to it.

damn his concise wording.

[drmcboy]

shysti: raises 125 to 175
Ralvis: calls 175
Karen222222: calls 175

after this, anyone can call with any two properly, meh. If you're stacking QT every time on this flop, OK, but I don't think you are. Q8 stacks you every time.

you also give TT+, AQ, AK a chance to come over the top pre flop and stack them, where as lots of flops scare off your action from them. You may even lose the pot to a lower pair on an A high flop

[zenbitz]

I don't like villains' flat call UTG+1 with KK. KK _4_ way is not so good. What if an ace flops? He's 3rd to act out of 4, but if a couple more people are in, his KK is about as good as 66 and only good if he flops a set. Re-raising UTG+1 is kinda playing your hand face up... but probably he does this with AA, maybe AK as well.

I disagree with Chard that villain should slow play only an overpair on this board... it was 4 way (including SB) and 58 is a straight draw flop. 67 has odds to call behind here, especially karen2222 who has twice the stack of anyone else.

I see no difference between a min/raise and a push, since hero only has raise+340 behind. It's a lazy push (no slider needed).

[chardrian]

I don't like villains' flat call UTG+1 with KK. KK _4_ way is not so good. What if an ace flops? He's 3rd to act out of 4, but if a couple more people are in, his KK is about as good as 66 and only good if he flops a set. Re-raising UTG+1 is kinda playing your hand face up... but probably he does this with AA, maybe AK as well.

I disagree with Chard that villain should slow play only an overpair on this board... it was 4 way (including SB) and 58 is a straight draw flop. 67 has odds to call behind here, especially karen2222 who has twice the stack of anyone else.

I see no difference between a min/raise and a push, since hero only has raise+340 behind. It's a lazy push (no slider needed).

I didn't say he should slow play.

There is a difference between minraising and pushing. Our hero might have only 340 left but karen does not. If you are trying to get karen out of the hand just push. I also just get frustrated with minraises becuase they are a waste of time. Just get the hand over with already.

[mcatdog]

I've started cold-calling raises with AA and KK some of the time if the raise comes from the right type of player. I don't really see "OMG what if an ace flops" as a valid reason not to do it, either. Sure, you might have to fold the flop some of the time, but if you win a sufficiently bigger pot the rest of the time, it's still a good play.

Edit: By "right type of player," I mean either a good player who will fold if I re-raise, or else an aggressive idiot who probably has nothing but will bluff off lots of chips to me after the flop.

[fjuanl]

I dont think its "impossible to get away from this flop" at all

The first blunder is the flop bet. There wasnt any need to overbet since there are no flush/straight draws (lets just assume 67 doesnt call a UTG raise...)

Hands that call your flop bet : QJ, KQ, AQ, 55, 88, QQ+

QJ would be a loose call, so basically theres only 1 hand that your happy calling you on the flop.

Betting 500-700 might invite some worse hands in (lower pocket pairs, lower queens) and you'll be able to gage where your at and still be able to get out if you think your beat. I mean, what hands are going to raise this flop??? He can't be semibluffing bc of the lack of draws. Queens with decent kickers arent going to be agressive versus a UTG raiser and are going to call you down. If you bet 600 on the flop and were raised, you could get out and still have 1700 at 25/50 blinds.


edit: i guess it might be a little harder to get away from this considering its a $4+.40, and you'll see some people do this with JJ or QT or something...

i still think you can give yourself a better chance to get away from the hand when your behind by betting less on the flop

edit2: i didnt really answer the question you wanted...lol. at higher limits, i dont see any problem flat calling in his position. smart players see a utg raise and a utg+1 call and its ususally folds from there on out. if there were 2-3 callers in front then definetly it would be a poor play. at the 4+.40's with all the fish, not re-raising here was really bad because you can ususally stack idiots with AJ, 88+ here

[DickieBets]

Am I too weak tight in thinking that this is the exact reason I hate raising A-Q o UTG at this stage of a tourney ? You just have no idea where you are at if someone plays back at you.

Martin

[shysti]

Oddly enough this same thing happen again, at a low level sng I was in, is this common in the low level where they limp with hands like KK? with so many to act after them lol.

I know this was a marginal hand to play, and actually I don't remember why I limped in but check out this guy's play:

PokerStars Game #4823442821: Tournament #24142548, $3.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2006/05/03 - 18:48:37 (ET)
Table '24142548 1' 10-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: Moineau JR (2740 in chips)
Seat 2: baggio84 (1695 in chips)
Seat 3: SmokinLarry5 (1310 in chips)
Seat 4: shysti (2360 in chips)
Seat 5: XTim97 (1140 in chips)
Seat 6: ethane433 (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: johnnybar111 (1215 in chips)
Seat 8: Grmsales19 (3040 in chips) is sitting out
Grmsales19: posts small blind 25
Moineau JR: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to shysti [8s Ks]
baggio84: calls 50
SmokinLarry5: calls 50
shysti: calls 50
XTim97: calls 50
ethane433: folds
johnnybar111: folds
Grmsales19: folds
Moineau JR: checks
*** FLOP *** [Kc 5d Ac]
Moineau JR: checks
baggio84: checks
SmokinLarry5: checks
shysti: bets 185 <---Probe bet
Grmsales19 has returned
XTim97: folds
Moineau JR: calls 185
baggio84: calls 185
SmokinLarry5: calls 185
*** TURN *** [Kc 5d Ac] [8d]
Moineau JR: checks
baggio84: checks
SmokinLarry5: checks
shysti: bets 800 <--- lots of callers, but no one has shown strength during the flop bet, figured if someone was on a draw I would make them pay since I had two pair, thought my 2pair was good here.
Moineau JR: folds
baggio84: raises 660 to 1460 and is all-in
SmokinLarry5: folds
shysti: calls 660
*** RIVER *** [Kc 5d Ac 8d] [Ah]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
baggio84: shows [Kh Kd] (a full house, Kings full of Aces)
shysti: shows [8s Ks] (two pair, Aces and Kings)
baggio84 collected 3935 from pot
shysti said, "lol"

[shysti]

He limped KK utg, which to me is horrid, but it worked out for him because of my donk plays. Still I would never limp like this I guess, do you all agree?

[re84uk]

Limping with QQ+ is pretty common I find, at low stakes atleast. A lot of the players you face are passive. I am also noticing more and more players starting to smooth call a raiser with QQ+ pre flop. It seems to be quite a regular thing now.

[shysti]

Well that's just dumb!

[drmcboy]

ToP - clearly you are making a mistake limping QQ+ (by allowing others play correct given your hand) - the question is does it open the possiblility for others to make bigger mistakes on later streets, which is the argument Gabe/Char made earlier. Certainly it does. IMO, people suck enough in the average MTT that the deception added by limping is not worth the risk.

[zenbitz]

I don't like villains' flat call UTG+1 with KK. KK _4_ way is not so good. What if an ace flops? He's 3rd to act out of 4, but if a couple more people are in, his KK is about as good as 66 and only good if he flops a set. Re-raising UTG+1 is kinda playing your hand face up... but probably he does this with AA, maybe AK as well.

I disagree with Chard that villain should slow play only an overpair on this board...

I didn't say he should slow play.
.

I had to re-read this. Calling and hopeing for overcalls = slow play. Pushing = not slow play. We were both right.

[zenbitz]

his smooth call pre flop is terrible IMO. If he was the BB and it was heads up, MAYBE, but he's risking playing KK 3-4 way.

since people are so much likely to go broke with top pair in tournaments, is smooth calling really that bad?

People also go broke with overpairs in a multi-way pot. AND people go broke with top pair in a heads up flop. AND the people who can't get away from top pair are often the same ones who don't realize that your pre-flop re-raise screams KK!

That being said, it's a play of sorts to flat call here. You better be damn sure you know what you are doing. Here is a real good reason to flat call - if the original raiser is short stacked, so isolating against him is playing for a smaller stack. By letting someone else in, you have a chance to win a bigger pot.

I think the second hand, which is an open-limp KK is a much better play than flat calling. You are still going 4-5 way, but now now for cheaper - so you can fold under pressure on the flop. Also, if someone gets frisky pre-flop you get the re-raise (which is transparent, but probably the max +EV)

Both of these plays are much better if you have the stack to withstand doubling someone up when their 89s hits.

[jdubs]

(2nd hand) In the 4.40s, the limp with KK UTG isnt that good a play IMO- maybe in a higher buy in this is OK, or at the FT in this tourney, but so many fishes early in these 180 tourneys will call, or even re raise you with something like KQ, that just raising 3-5x BB is the best move here I think.

[shysti]

haha ok today is a new day and im at the low level again, and I raised pre flop guy has KK and calls the raise with 3 others who call behind him and he stacks me after I flop top pair. lol

This must be common at this level wow

[Warpe]

Limping with QQ+ is pretty common I find, at low stakes atleast. A lot of the players you face are passive. I am also noticing more and more players starting to smooth call a raiser with QQ+ pre flop. It seems to be quite a regular thing now.

PokerStars Game #4703211843: Tournament #23481384, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level XIV (1500/3000) - 2006/04/22 - 00:38:00 (ET)
Table '23481384 4' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: acowan21 (70858 in chips)
Seat 2: Warpe (23145 in chips)
Seat 4: aconsuma (107179 in chips)
Seat 5: hommerdome (68818 in chips)
acowan21: posts the ante 150
Warpe: posts the ante 150
aconsuma: posts the ante 150
hommerdome: posts the ante 150
Warpe: posts small blind 1500
aconsuma: posts big blind 3000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Warpe [3d 3c]
hommerdome: calls 3000
acowan21: folds
Warpe: raises 19995 to 22995 and is all-in
aconsuma: folds
hommerdome: calls 19995
*** FLOP *** [As Jh Jc]
Warpe said, "ack"
aconsuma said, "nice"
*** TURN *** [As Jh Jc] [6s]
*** RIVER *** [As Jh Jc 6s] [Ad]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Warpe: shows [3d 3c] (two pair, Aces and Jacks)
hommerdome: shows [Ks Kh] (two pair, Aces and Kings)
aconsuma said, "gg"
Warpe said, "gg"
hommerdome collected 49590 from pot
hommerdome said, "gg"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 49590 | Rake 0
Board [As Jh Jc 6s Ad]
Seat 1: acowan21 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Warpe (small blind) showed [3d 3c] and lost with two pair, Aces and Jacks
Seat 4: aconsuma (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: hommerdome showed [Ks Kh] and won (49590) with two pair, Aces and Kings

[shysti]

im limpin with kk from now on

/sarcasm

[zenbitz]

Re: Warpe's 33 hand... I almost wonder if you can escape here. Unless homedome is limping any two UTG (?!?!?), he kinda has to call you, and 33 is no better than 55/45 vs any limpable hand.

I would actually fold 33 here ( I think) IF homerdome has not been limping much at all. If he limps alot, well, gg.

[Warpe]

Re: Warpe's 33 hand... I almost wonder if you can escape here. Unless homedome is limping any two UTG (?!?!?), he kinda has to call you, and 33 is no better than 55/45 vs any limpable hand.

I would actually fold 33 here ( I think) IF homerdome has not been limping much at all. If he limps alot, well, gg.

I dunno. Shortstacked and shorthanded, I was pushing any PP and practically any broadway at this point. With the blinds hitting me again in 3 hands...

I didn't have any history with homerdome prior to the final table, so I couldn't tell you if he was limping a lot or not.

[shysti]

Well I decided to give flat calling the kk a try and this is my results:

PokerStars Game #4842560230: Tournament #24247393, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2006/05/05 - 18:26:45 (ET)
Table '24247393 2' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: hockeychic (1910 in chips)
Seat 2: Rayven1 (1650 in chips)
Seat 3: shysti (1330 in chips)
Seat 4: ocron (4660 in chips)
Seat 5: Reziztence (1070 in chips)
Seat 6: stilyst09 (1400 in chips)
Seat 8: HYDROTOP (1480 in chips)
Seat 9: MERRIE (1420 in chips)
stilyst09: posts small blind 10
HYDROTOP: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to shysti [Kh Kc]
MERRIE: calls 20
hockeychic: folds
Rayven1: raises 40 to 60
shysti: calls 60
ocron: calls 60
Reziztence: calls 60
stilyst09: folds
HYDROTOP: folds
MERRIE: folds
*** FLOP *** [4s 7s Th]
Rayven1: bets 100
shysti: raises 200 to 300
ocron: folds
Reziztence: calls 300
Rayven1: folds
*** TURN *** [4s 7s Th] [5c]
shysti: checks
Reziztence: bets 710 and is all-in
shysti: calls 710
*** RIVER *** [4s 7s Th 5c] [5h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
shysti: shows [Kh Kc] (two pair, Kings and Fives)
Reziztence: shows [Ts 8s] (two pair, Tens and Fives)
shysti collected 2410 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2410 | Rake 0
Board [4s 7s Th 5c 5h]
Seat 1: hockeychic folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Rayven1 folded on the Flop
Seat 3: shysti showed [Kh Kc] and won (2410) with two pair, Kings and Fives
Seat 4: ocron folded on the Flop
Seat 5: Reziztence (button) showed [Ts 8s] and lost with two pair, Tens and Fives
Seat 6: stilyst09 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: HYDROTOP (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: MERRIE folded before Flop

[re84uk]

Warpe got limpwned

[re84uk]

Shysti is my passive hero :P

[zenbitz]

Re: Warpe's 33 hand... I almost wonder if you can escape here. Unless homedome is limping any two UTG (?!?!?), he kinda has to call you, and 33 is no better than 55/45 vs any limpable hand.

I would actually fold 33 here ( I think) IF homerdome has not been limping much at all. If he limps alot, well, gg.

I dunno. Shortstacked and shorthanded, I was pushing any PP and practically any broadway at this point. With the blinds hitting me again in 3 hands...

I didn't have any history with homerdome prior to the final table, so I couldn't tell you if he was limping a lot or not.

Yeah, you are pretty screwed here, and a coin-flip is by no means the worst pre-flop outcome. I am just always SUPER suspecious when anyone limps anything with blinds this high. It's just not right.

And I would be OPEN pushing Q-high I think in your position, but that limper changes everything. Basically, your FE becomes zero.

[shysti]

Shysti is my passive hero :P

check out this KK play

PokerStars Game #4843042661: Tournament #24247393, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2006/05/05 - 19:16:28 (ET)
Table '24247393 1' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: buckeyemom69 (3380 in chips)
Seat 2: MERRIE (1195 in chips)
Seat 3: shysti (8480 in chips)
Seat 5: rin0m3 (5765 in chips)
Seat 6: hockeychic (3385 in chips)
Seat 8: Rayven1 (4795 in chips)
rin0m3: posts small blind 100
hockeychic: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to shysti [Kh Ks]
Rayven1: folds
buckeyemom69: calls 200
MERRIE: calls 200
shysti: raises 400 to 600
rin0m3: folds
hockeychic: folds
buckeyemom69: calls 400
MERRIE: raises 400 to 1000
shysti: calls 400
buckeyemom69: calls 400
*** FLOP *** [3d Jd Ts]
buckeyemom69: bets 400
MERRIE: calls 195 and is all-in
shysti: raises 7080 to 7480 and is all-in
buckeyemom69: calls 1980 and is all-in
shysti said, "lol"
*** TURN *** [3d Jd Ts] [5s]
shysti said, "queen 8"
*** RIVER *** [3d Jd Ts 5s] [8d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
buckeyemom69: shows [8h Qh] (a pair of Eights)
shysti: shows [Kh Ks] (a pair of Kings)
shysti said, "gg"
shysti collected 4370 from side pot
MERRIE: shows [Ac Js] (a pair of Jacks)
shysti collected 3885 from main pot
shysti said, "like that trap"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8255 Main pot 3885. Side pot 4370. | Rake 0
Board [3d Jd Ts 5s 8d]
Seat 1: buckeyemom69 showed [8h Qh] and lost with a pair of Eights
Seat 2: MERRIE showed [Ac Js] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 3: shysti (button) showed [Kh Ks] and won (8255) with a pair of Kings
Seat 5: rin0m3 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: hockeychic (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: Rayven1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[re84uk]

Just an example that in low stakes tournies, you really do not have to make advanced trap plays. Hands like this make me wiggle :P

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP2 (t1700)
MP3 (t1420)
Hero (t1520)
Button (t1530)
SB (t1520)
BB (t1390)
UTG (t1590)
UTG+1 (t1390)
MP1 (t1440)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K, K.
2 folds, MP1 raises to t80, MP2 calls t80, 1 fold, Hero raises to t240, 3 folds, MP1 calls t160, MP2 calls t160.

Flop: (t750) K, 6, 8 (3 players)
MP1 bets t1200 (All-In), MP2 raises to t1460, Hero calls t1280 (All-In).

Turn: (t4690) 2 (3 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t4690) 4 (3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t4690

Results in white below:
MP1 has Ac Kc (one pair, kings).
MP2 has 3s As (high card, ace).
Hero has Ks Kd (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins t4510. MP2 wins t180.

[Laeelin]

shysti said, "lol"
shysti said, "queen 8"

Dont tap the tank!

It's a REALLY bad play.

He is the perfect person to play against... dont embaress him unless you want him to stop calling your pushes with a gutshot