Quote Originally Posted by natdang
Quote Originally Posted by aislephive
Well even assuming your 6 outs are good, you are about an 8:1 dog to improve on the hand so your "pot odds" aren't there.
Wait, wouldn't 6 live outs give me 3:1 against improving? (6/47)+(6/46)=0.25
Or by the "multiply" rule, (6 outs)x4=24% chance of improving
(correct me if i'm doing the math wrong here)
No, the math you did is for seeing two cards. You are only paying to see the turn, so you multiply the number of outs you expect to have times two, so in this case it's around 12% or so to improve.

This is a great example of reverse implied odds.
Looks more like a great example of a results oriented reply. No offense, but if the table was playing loose (which I assume from the feel I get here) then you'd have to be a real nit to lay this down to a teensy $5 bet and in doing so you really lose out on tons of money in the long run..
There's nothing results oriented about it. Like others have said, if the pot was heads up then a call isn't that bad. But in a multiway pot with a bet and a call in front we can assume they both have some kind of hand and that our outs are not pure since we could very well share a card with one of them and be drawing to three outs, or if somebody has a set then we're pretty much drawing dead.

You seem like a pretty bright kid JV, so I'm going to let you in on a little secret . The essence of NL is stacking people. This is why it's best to fold KQ in the BB after there is a raise from up front and then three callers. You just never know where you're at with a dominated hand like that. In the hand above I would much rather be drawing to a gutshot than just two overcards, since if I hit my gutshot I know I have the best hand, where as if I hit my overcard I "might" have the best hand but I'm not really sure. If I'm behind and improve to still be the second best hand I'm undoubtedly going to lose more money in the hand, but there is just no way I'm going to hit top pair and win a monster pot, it just isn't going to happen. It's best to just fold these hands on the flop and look for a better spot.