Folding KK preflop

[Rockymv]

Do I do it here? If not here, then when?

POKERSTARS GAME #5155649794: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.25/$0.50) - 2006/06/04 - 22:15:40 (ET)
Table 'Euporie II' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: ngericl ($39 in chips)
Seat 2: Kev Canada ($21.25 in chips)
Seat 3: DocLuv ($29.75 in chips)
Seat 4: dtrain17 ($47.65 in chips)
Seat 5: AArbrad3 ($77.50 in chips)
Seat 6: Bjacobs ($61.20 in chips)
Seat 8: Rockymv ($48.50 in chips)
Seat 9: Aaron Moon ($47.50 in chips)
Kev Canada: posts small blind $0.25
DocLuv: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Rockymv [Kh Kc]
dtrain17: folds
AArbrad3: calls $0.50
Bjacobs: folds
Rockymv: raises $1.50 to $2
Aaron Moon: raises $3 to $5
ngericl: folds
happytampons joins the table at seat #7
Kev Canada: folds
DocLuv: folds
AArbrad3: folds
Rockymv: raises $10 to $15
Aaron Moon: raises $32.50 to $47.50 and is all-in
Rockymv: calls $32.50
*** FLOP *** [9h 9c 6c]
*** TURN *** [9h 9c 6c] [8d]
*** RIVER *** [9h 9c 6c 8d] [Qd]

[andy-akb]

Use a converter, this hand isnt too tough to read, but still, it takes 5 seconds to do.

Folding KK has to do some with the betting line, but more with reads and stats. Putting in this many bets is often going to be against AA, barring all reads on your opponent, but reads can change this entirely. So, what reads did you have here? I have never folded KK preflop, but Ive put people on AA plenty of times during hands Im not involved in simply because of their betting action combined with their incredibly tight stats.

[givememyleg]

Reads? He min raised and re-raised over your 3bet.... Unless this guy is a donk I probably fold... I have only folded KK once preflop, and that was because in a situation like this.. and I had a solid read on him that he was very tag.

[Rockymv]

only 5 hands with him...no reads. it's been a long day, and i 'just knew' he had AA. the thing is i don't know whether i was really sure he had AA, or whether it was just a result of losing all day.

[Lukie]

why not just call the first reraise? If his range is like most players at this level and he's competant, he's gonna push AA and fold everything else.

[Rockymv]

why not just call the first reraise? If his range is like most players at this level and he's competant, he's gonna push AA and fold everything else.

If the flop is all unders, how will I tell the difference between AA and QQ?

[Knytestorme]

Well you know he's on aces, he's told you he's on aces but with no reads and HU's I'm probably paying him off here and hoping he's just hyper-aggressive with AK or QQ.

Only times I have laid down KK preflop so far have been in multi-way all-ins before getting to me.

[andy-akb]

why not just call the first reraise? If his range is like most players at this level and he's competant, he's gonna push AA and fold everything else.

How do you play postflop? By simply calling the 3rd bet an unknowns range remains fairly wide. We are OOP, so do we lead and 3bet AI, how would we play this paired flop?

[mcatdog]

why not just call the first reraise? If his range is like most players at this level and he's competant, he's gonna push AA and fold everything else.

If the flop is all unders, how will I tell the difference between AA and QQ?

You can't, the point isn't how to not get stacked by AA, it's how to maximize your wins if that's not what he has. If you just call him you'll probably get QQ's stack on that flop instead of making him fold preflop by putting in a fourth bet.

[salsa4ever]

why not just call the first reraise? If his range is like most players at this level and he's competant, he's gonna push AA and fold everything else.

If the flop is all unders, how will I tell the difference between AA and QQ?

You can't, the point isn't how to not get stacked by AA, it's how to maximize your wins if that's not what he has. If you just call him you'll probably get QQ's stack on that flop instead of making him fold preflop by putting in a fourth bet.

DING DING DING we have a winner!

What do we do if we had AK here? Just fold it? If you call then wtf do we do if an ace/king hits?

[Renton]

the range calls a 4 bet push is bigger than the range that calls a raise to 15

[Werddown]

We are in position, so

No we aren't?

[andy-akb]

We are in position, so

No we aren't?

My bad, just looked quickly at seat #s and didnt realize the villain acted after us.

[Rockymv]

why not just call the first reraise? If his range is like most players at this level and he's competant, he's gonna push AA and fold everything else.

If the flop is all unders, how will I tell the difference between AA and QQ?

You can't, the point isn't how to not get stacked by AA, it's how to maximize your wins if that's not what he has. If you just call him you'll probably get QQ's stack on that flop instead of making him fold preflop by putting in a fourth bet.

So I'm resigned to losing my stack to AA if that's what he has? How do I play the flop if I call the first reraise? It seems like I'm giving AK, QQ, JJ a chance to catch up. If there's a lot of action, am I putting all my chips in?

[andy-akb]

So I'm resigned to losing my stack to AA if that's what he has? How do I play the flop if I call the first reraise? It seems like I'm giving AK, QQ, JJ a chance to catch up. If there's a lot of action, am I putting all my chips in?

Im going to go out on a limb with this one, because Im not 100% sure of the logic behind the play, but I can try to guess as to why I think this is a good move to make.

Against an unknown you cant assume you are going to be able to take their stack preflop if they have QQ or JJ or AK, etc. anything else that puts a good amount of bets in preflop but doesnt want to commit their whole stack without seeing the flop. Are you giving AK QQ and JJ a chance to catch up? Yes, but its such a small chance.

KK is an 82 to 18 favorite over QQ, 81 to 19 over JJ, 70 to 30 over AKo and 65:35 to AKs, and that is assuming you see all 5 cards so the chances of them outflopping you are even less.

If you simply call the 3bet instead of pushing or putting in a 4th bet, you have a much better chance of stacking QQ or JJ or getting an extra bet out of AK. So yes, you give them a small chance to outflop you, but you get a much larger chance of making more from them than you would just pushing preflop.

Lukie, renton, et. all, correct me if my thinking is off here.

[Renton]

Rocky, I have a few alternatives when put in the spot you were put in with this hand.

1. Against a very tight player I am calling the reraise and playing for a set, and won't have much trouble folding the flop.

2. Against an unknown at 50nl or a loose bad player, I am pushing all in.

If he 3 bets all in an doesn't give me the chance to decide, there's no way I am getting away from the 2nd nuts, unless I have a rock solid read.

[Lukie]

why not just call the first reraise? If his range is like most players at this level and he's competant, he's gonna push AA and fold everything else.

If the flop is all unders, how will I tell the difference between AA and QQ?

If the player has any skill, you aren't going to be able to until significant money goes into the pot.

[Lukie]

why not just call the first reraise? If his range is like most players at this level and he's competant, he's gonna push AA and fold everything else.

How do you play postflop? By simply calling the 3rd bet an unknowns range remains fairly wide. We are OOP, so do we lead and 3bet AI, how would we play this paired flop?

The paired 9's on the flop shouldn't be a concern. After the flop I think there's a lot of ways this hand can be played. We're afraid of exactly 1 hand, and against an unknown, we should be felting this. So whatever line I think would get max value out of 2nd best hands is probably the one I would take.

[Lukie]

why not just call the first reraise? If his range is like most players at this level and he's competant, he's gonna push AA and fold everything else.

If the flop is all unders, how will I tell the difference between AA and QQ?

You can't, the point isn't how to not get stacked by AA, it's how to maximize your wins if that's not what he has. If you just call him you'll probably get QQ's stack on that flop instead of making him fold preflop by putting in a fourth bet.

DING DING DING we have a winner!

What do we do if we had AK here? Just fold it? If you call then wtf do we do if an ace/king hits?

lol why are we putting in a 3rd raise preflop that plays like such dogshit to an unknowns 3-betting range?

[Lukie]

the range calls a 4 bet push is bigger than the range that calls a raise to 15

I disagree with this.

[Lukie]

why not just call the first reraise? If his range is like most players at this level and he's competant, he's gonna push AA and fold everything else.

If the flop is all unders, how will I tell the difference between AA and QQ?

You can't, the point isn't how to not get stacked by AA, it's how to maximize your wins if that's not what he has. If you just call him you'll probably get QQ's stack on that flop instead of making him fold preflop by putting in a fourth bet.

So I'm resigned to losing my stack to AA if that's what he has? How do I play the flop if I call the first reraise? It seems like I'm giving AK, QQ, JJ a chance to catch up. If there's a lot of action, am I putting all my chips in?

depends on what the guy's range is. Hard to say. But yeah, when KK is no good in reraised pots, you're usually getting stacked on a rag board. Sucks but you lose out on a ton of value if you don't usually felt in spots like this.

[Galapogos]

I'm not a fan of KK in preflops like this. AA is so transparent at our levels I find it an easy laydown. The only way I get it in preflop is if I know villian has a wide range for re-raising preflop. Seems most of the guys here believe it's a default push without reads. I think it's the opposite. If I have no reads I assume he has the goods.

I call the re-raise preflop and hope to set. Whether I hit it or not I hit the flop hard. If I'm raised again I'm out.

Most of the big gunners here will think I'm a nit and losing value on a big hand but everytime I see KK go all-in preflop against a decent player it is up against AA. And I sleep better at night for this.

[thnwkd]

I'm not a fan of KK in preflops like this. AA is so transparent at our levels I find it an easy laydown. The only way I get it in preflop is if I know villian has a wide range for re-raising preflop. Seems most of the guys here believe it's a default push without reads. I think it's the opposite. If I have no reads I assume he has the goods.

I call the re-raise preflop and hope to set. Whether I hit it or not I hit the flop hard. If I'm raised again I'm out.

Most of the big gunners here will think I'm a nit and losing value on a big hand but everytime I see KK go all-in preflop against a decent player it is up against AA. And I sleep better at night for this.

i like.

[FlyingSaucy]

I'd pay him off if he's got it. For every time your K's are up against A's, your A's are up against someone else's K's and they'll pay you off. It's not worth laying it down because you're missing out on value in the event that, without reads, he's got the other KK or he's got QQ.