Can you be good at SNG & Suck @ MTT's?

[locks1018]

Ok. I'm a pretty good SNG player not to toot my horn or anything but I consistently make the money and I consistently have increased my bankroll. I understand just about everything there is to a SNG but I can't seem to handle MTT's well. I'm either bubling not getting close. I mean who cares about cashing and making there buy-in back after two hours. I don't know if this is my problem but I play my MTT very similar to the way I play my SNG's. I stay out of the way early. I play very few speculative hands early and try to pick spots to increease my stack. As the tournament progresses, I just can't seem to get over that next hump in the middle stages, I'll either lose a critical race or someone sucks out on me for all my stack.

I heard a player say the trick to winning MTT is to have enough chips that when you lose a critical race or get sucked out on, you can keep playing.

To me, in SNG's its all about how strong you start off pre-flop. They are very mechanical in nature where MTT is more art. I don't race vert often in a SNG yet in MTT, I find myself gambling to get a stack.

I keep finding myself in a few similar situations early when I don't make it deep:

I flop a set and we get all-in against a flush/straight draw
I flop a set commit them on the turn and they still they call with only a draw. Calling me down with 2nd or 3rd pair and then catching a backdoor something or set that didn't coordinate with the board

Ok. Last note before I ask for help. Myself and a friend of mine decided to challenge each other to 44 $4.40 180 man SNG's. Maybe I'm a donkey but these are harder to play than the $20+2's. The play is so eratic. I decided to try ABC poker. That doesn't work. I raise with KK get called by Q2 which turns two pair or all ace/rags are playable hands or even worth calling all ins. Or someone calling you down with two overcards to the boards on putting the tourney life on the line with a gut-shot and one card to come.

Now, I'm trying to complain. I'm here to discuss bad beats. My question is how do I stop bubbling, start making money in the MTT's like I do in SNG's and is it feasible do really player well against fish that bad?

[Hartlin]

SNGs and MTTs have two different strategies in my opinion.

As you said, what is the point to play 3 hours just to get your buyin + a little bit back?

The goal for SNGs is first to cash, then to go for the win...

The goal for MTTs is to make the final table, as this is where the real money is. You have to build a stack in MTTs when the opportunity is available. You've got to be more willing to gamble a little more IF the situation will improve your chances of making the final table (or going very deep)

[Death_Kube_K]

Yeah completely diffrent. I dont even check to see how many players are left in MTT. heres a tip though, when it comes bubble time loosen up your play, people are just trying to make it in the money. So build your stack for the final stretch when its close to bubble.

[zenbitz]

To me the huge difference is that you are basically never short handed in an MTT until the FT (of which I made like 1), while in an SNG, most of the play is short handed short stacked.

So, it's harder to steal... but you need to steal less often (since blinds come around less often). So at times in a SNG when you need to be pushing all sorts of nonsense, you still can afford to be slightly more patient in an MTT. Finally, since there is opportunity to get a very large stack, there is, on average way more post flop play.

[Monty9]

How many MTT's have you played? The varience is alot higher due to fields, time playing etc. Plus don't expect to get to the final table that often. I'm not sure of percentages but I know its not that high. The last FT I made was on a night when I fired up 5 Mtts. in the $3 to $15 range.

I know there are different phylosiphys when it comes to MTT's. I honestly do somtimes try to get ITM then push for the FT or anothre intermediate goal.

One thing I have learned though that I always remind myself is to just play the folks at your table and forget about the others. You can only worry about the ones you are playing.

Be smart about trying to build your stack. I usually don't get desperate until my M is down to around 8 or less. Until then you really have to ask yourseld how small an edge you want to risk your tourney on. ie: is it really worth pushing ove the top of somebody with an unimproved AK? Early I say no.... late with a low M ... probably. And yes watch out for the suckout kings in the first hour or two especially at the low stakes.

Another bit of advice. I think every FT I have made or gone deep in an MTT was when I least expected it. The first one I won I just registered for the hell of it, opened a SNG and started to play. after 2 more SNGs I noticed I was in the top 30 or so. This has happend alot. I think this might have to do with not obsessing about a play and just reacting.

I am by no means an expert and felt I have gotten lucky on the few I have placed in.

Good luck and keep plugging away

[baudib]

I don't know if there is more postflop play or not. From the bubble on in there's very little postflop play, and if you make it to the final table and then final 2 or 3, that means usually more than half the tournament is played preflop.

I tend to push small edges less early on in MTTs. There is more variance but it only takes a couple of big wins for them to be profitable.

[zenbitz]

I don't know if there is more postflop play or not. From the bubble on in there's very little postflop play, and if you make it to the final table and then final 2 or 3, that means usually more than half the tournament is played preflop.

OK, but you are talking 2-3 hours to make it to the bubble in a big tourney. Even if it's only the first hour, that's an entire SNG. Not to say that in an MTT you will get to play a few hours post flop... a good fraction of the time (at least if you are a nit like me early) you will be short stacked and fighting for your life for most of the tourney.

Another thing I thought of - you get a MUCH bigger stack disparity at a given table in an MTT than SNG. SNG sometimes you get a guy with 3x the table average, but MTTs this is commonplace, and you can get times when a couple people have 1/2 the chips or more. This means your folding equity is less uniform (generally) at an MTT than a SNG - so you can't just play position out right, stack sizes of blinds, guys to act after are (more) important.

[jdubs]

because of the larger fields you are playing against, your downswings can be much much longer..you just have to keep playing these things, and not get discouraged, if you have a solid tournament game, you will succeed. How many MTTs have you played?

I have done well at the 4.40s playing my regular, TAGG, harrington inspired, ABC poker game. I have also gone through long dry spells, (8-12 OOTM) but I think this is to be expected. It can be frustrating when you have a string of hands sucked out on you, but you just have to stay persistent, and patient, IMO. Patience is probably the most important facet of playing MTTs, and I am not just talking about patience in one tourney, I mean patience over a long run of tourneys, when you bust OOTM in 12 straight. Think about it, one 1st 2nd or 3 rd place finish and you are still way ahead!! stay focused on your "ABC" game that you are beating SNGs with and the wins will come- they might take a little while , but they will come. my .02$ anyways.....