Another AA hand

[zook]

Villian is pretty laggy, 35/8/3.2 over 150 hands. I've been pretty aggressive at the two tables we're playing at together, but I haven't shown down anything crazy, so he probably respects my pre-flop re-raise out of the BB. Should I have lead this flop? What's my plan if I get raised? As played, what do I do with his turn push?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP2 ($17.95)
MP3 ($49.25)
CO ($38.85)
Button ($46.10)
SB ($11.19)
Hero ($50)
UTG ($109.75)
UTG+1 ($52.25)
UTG+2 ($49)
MP1 ($33.45)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, A. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.50, 2 folds, MP3 calls $0.50, 1 fold, Button raises to $3, 1 fold, Hero raises to $7.5, UTG+2 folds, MP3 folds, Button calls $5.

Flop: ($17.25) K, Q, 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($17.25) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $10.5, Button raises $27.60 (All-In), Hero ???

[dwags222]

i think checking this flop is a huge mistake...as played it is tough to guess what his hand it, button could have anything from a-k, kk, qq, or maybe even 22 or 55...

[Sprayed]

You need to bet the flop. I would have put him on AK, AQ, 1010-QQ. I would think that if he had K's he would have done a raise war pre-flop with you. If he has KQ or 55, I seriously doubt that he would raise pre-flop with limpers in. The turn push tells me that he either slow played the flop with his set of K's or Q's., or he thinks that you missed the flop and is now trying to steal it. I would call because I can't fold AA, which may be a leak .

[andy-akb]

Id make it atleast $9 preflop and hope to bet/3bet AI on that flop. Checking isnt great since there are lots of draws out there that he could have. I bet more on that turn and call a push.

[givememyleg]

Id make it atleast $9 preflop and hope to bet/3bet AI on that flop. Checking isnt great since there are lots of draws out there that he could have. I bet more on that turn and call a push.

I was gonna reply but then this is pretty much exactly what I was gonna say.

[freechus9]

As played I think you have to call. The fact that you checked the flop and then bet the turn makes it look like a nice bluff from you, so I think he may be pushing with AK/AQ/air.

[zook]

Ok, I should bet the flop. Then do I fold to an AI raise?

For the results oriented, he showed KK and I didn't improve. AA is killing me... over 10,000 hands at 50NL, AA is a losing hand for me! I've had it 38 times and am losing an average of 2.18BB/hand. I raise and re-raise them hard pre-flop, but it seems like I'm either winning tiny pots, or stacking off to sets. I realize this is why people say that 10,000 hands isn't a big sample size, but I think I clearly need to find some post-flop folds with AA? Right? I'm in need of an FTR therapy session...

[a500lbgorilla]

post all your AA hands... AA has never been a loser for me over any sample size larger than like 6 hands...

[Anaemik]

Ok, I should bet the flop. Then do I fold to an AI raise?

For the results oriented, he showed KK and I didn't improve. AA is killing me... over 10,000 hands at 50NL, AA is a losing hand for me! I've had it 38 times and am losing an average of 2.18BB/hand. I raise and re-raise them hard pre-flop, but it seems like I'm either winning tiny pots, or stacking off to sets. I realize this is why people say that 10,000 hands isn't a big sample size, but I think I clearly need to find some post-flop folds with AA? Right? I'm in need of an FTR therapy session...

Why would you NOT bet the flop here?

Rasing to $7.50 against a bet of $3 is not raising hard. 3 bet his raise as a minimum here.

You're going broke with this hand.

[Fnord]

It's fine.

[zook]

Id make it atleast $9 preflop

Rasing to $7.50 against a bet of $3 is not raising hard.

A pot-sized re-raise pre-flop is standard for me. Not for you guys? (And actually I raised it to $8, not $7.50, the converter screwed up, so it's a little more than post-sized.) I understand there are two limpers behind me, but they open-limped. I'd raise it more if one of them called villain's raise, but $8 is a huge pre-flop bet at most 50NL tables, so I didn't expect them to call.

Why would you NOT bet the flop here?

I was hoping to get a bet out of AK or AQ and c/r. I was also hoping to limit the damage if he had KK or QQ, but then I wasn't able to fold to his turn push, so there went that idea. The problem here is differentiating between KK/QQ and AK/AQ from oop. I'm just not sure how to do it.

post all your AA hands...

Ok, thanks. Hopefully tonight when I can access all my old HH's.

[Warpe]

AA is killing me... over 10,000 hands at 50NL, AA is a losing hand for me! I've had it 38 times and am losing an average of 2.18BB/hand...

Win %? That's a truer story.

[Fnord]

When so much money goes into the pot pre-flop, I don't even consider laying down my Aces post-flop. We're pretty much always felting here, it's just a matter of figuring out how to balance this and get worse hands to come along for the ride.

Pre-flop is fine, seriously.
You got to bet this for balance (I'm assuming you'll make that re-raise with trash sometimes, maybe this is a you vs me thing), immediate value and to avoid the disaster of giving a free card in a big pot when you'll pay off like a bitch.

[Fnord]

AA is killing me... over 10,000 hands at 50NL, AA is a losing hand for me! I've had it 38 times and am losing an average of 2.18BB/hand...

Win %? That's a truer story.

He might be blowing people out of pots. It was a bit of a problem for me until I re-adjusted my game for tighter opponents.

[WhooFleuryScores]

Preflop:Make it $10-$12 to go.

Flop: Bet near pot; fold to a push.

As played fold turn.

[samsonite2100]

I'm not usually folding AA to a push on this flop. It can too easily be a drawing hand, not to mention the usual donk pushes with AK, etc.

[zook]

Win %? That's a truer story.

81.5%, so I've lost 7 out of 38 hands, for an average of $46/loss. I've lost to five sets, one straight (to a shortstack AI pre-flop) and one slowplayed flopped flush (which I really should have gotten away from). I've stacked people four or five times with aces, but only one was even near a full buy-in.

You got to bet this for balance (I'm assuming you'll make that re-raise with trash sometimes, maybe this is a you vs me thing)

Against a laggy opponent like this I might lower my re-raise range as far as 99+, AQ+,KQs in position, but I'm still going to be pretty tight from the BB (maybe just JJ+ & AK).

[Fnord]

Against a laggy opponent like this I might lower my re-raise range as far as 99+, AQ+,KQs in position, but I'm still going to be pretty tight from the BB (maybe just JJ+ & AK).

When you re-raise out of the blinds and c-bet how often are you getting called? How often are hands that don't beat AA/KK continuing? In many of the online games I'm in, nothing is a pretty good hand the way most players play their hand.

Oh, and the limit game is one tab over...

[Miffed22001]

reraise to 10-12 preflop just check push any flop or push anyway.

Imo letting someone bet thsi flop in position is actually a way to let them bet at the pot, and a lot of players cannot resist the temptation to do so at small stakes.

[zook]

When you re-raise out of the blinds and c-bet how often are you getting called? How often are hands that don't beat AA/KK continuing? In many of the online games I'm in, nothing is a pretty good hand the way most players play their hand.

Probably not very often and less often. I see your point... how can we expect to get action from our premium hands when we re-raise with a small range. How wide a range would you recommend? I know it's very read-dependent... how about against an opponent with pre-flop stats as above (35/8) but no post-flop reads? Are you showing your re-raises with crap cards or just relying on the table to figure it out?

Oh, and the limit game is one tab over...

Wait! Where's the ALL-IN button???

[Warpe]

Win %? That's a truer story.

81.5%, so I've lost 7 out of 38 hands, for an average of $46/loss. I've lost to five sets, one straight (to a shortstack AI pre-flop) and one slowplayed flopped flush (which I really should have gotten away from). I've stacked people four or five times with aces, but only one was even near a full buy-in.

So...sample size is way too small and that's largely what's skewing your net $ amounts. You also need to pay a bit more attention to table selection and pick tables where most of the players buy-in full.

[zook]

Against a laggy opponent like this I might lower my re-raise range as far as 99+, AQ+,KQs in position, but I'm still going to be pretty tight from the BB (maybe just JJ+ & AK).

When you re-raise out of the blinds and c-bet how often are you getting called? How often are hands that don't beat AA/KK continuing? In many of the online games I'm in, nothing is a pretty good hand the way most players play their hand.

Oh, and the limit game is one tab over...

Funny, I just got to the pre-flop raising section of Sklansky & Miller's NLHE T&P and found this:

"...say you are in the big blind and five players call. Ordinarily you would check with all but your best hands. That is, you would play every hand. In this situation, consider making your big semi-bluffs with your very worst hands: 9h3c, Jd2s, and the like. Keep in mind, though, that we are talking about big raises that will rarely be called....Choose your very worst hands because seeing a flop with those hands has less value than seeing one with a decent, but not good, hand like queen-eight suited. Since you can see the flop with certainty if you check, bluff-raising costs you that money you would make if you happened to flop great."

Interesting idea... I may have to try it out at tight tables.

[AHiltz]

Preflop:Make it $10-$12 to go.

Flop: Bet near pot; fold to a push.

As played fold turn.

You can't be serious????????

Hero has $50. A $12 raise followed by a call would have $25.75 in the pot on the flop. So, you're telling me, that if you bet $20 on the flop that you're folding to a push? Youve put $32 of your $50 into the pot. You've got to call $14.10 at a $79.85 pot???????????????

[Fnord]

Same idea as Ed's pre-flop semi-bluff, only this is a two street play. We give them odds to set/whatever against our "Big Pair", then take the money on the table when they miss or don't even try to out-flop us.

[Lukie]

It boggles my mind how few people understand what a 'pot-sized' raise is.

I'm not saying the hand was played poorly or that you have to raise pot preflop, I'm just saying. It's completely independant of this hand.

[zook]

It boggles my mind how few people understand what a 'pot-sized' raise is.

I'm not saying the hand was played poorly or that you have to raise pot preflop, I'm just saying. It's completely independant of this hand.

I miscalculated multiple times I guess. The pot was $4.75 when it got to me, so a pot-sized raise would have made it $9.50. I forgot to account for the blinds that were already in.

[Fnord]

When it's to you, there are 2 calls, a raise and the small binds (you're the BB.)

Your call makes the pot $3 + $3+ $0.5 + $0.5 + $0.25 = $7.25.
Potting it would be $3 + $7.25 (pot after our call) = $10.25

[Renton]

If you would have made it at least 10 to go preflop, it wouldn't have mattered what happened after the flop, because the implied odds wouldn't have been there for villain to chase 2 outs.

PS: Heres how you calculate a pot size raise:

PSR = (amount of the pot when it gets to you) + ((amount to call) * 2)

E.g. its preflop and the initial pot is 3 with one and two blinds. Two players limp to you for 2 each and you intend to raise on the button.

The amount of the pot when it gets to you is 2+1+2+2= 7 dollars (blinds plus two limpers).

The amount to call is 2 dollars. So...

PSR = (7) + ((2)*2) = 11 dollars is your raise


In your case...

PSR = (.5+.5+3) + ((3)*2) = 10 dollars should have been your raise.

[Fnord]

If you would have made it at least 10 to go preflop, it wouldn't have mattered what happened after the flop, because the implied odds wouldn't have been there for villain to chase 2 outs.

I think there is more value in a smaller raise in most games and that line works better with air.

[zook]

When it's to you, there are 2 calls, a raise and the small binds (you're the BB.)

Your call makes the pot $3 + $3+ $0.5 + $0.5 + $0.25 = $7.25.
Potting it would be $3 + $7.25 (pot after our call) = $10.25

Wow Ok, Lukie's right, I don't know what a pot-sized raise is. I forget to include the money I'd be committing to call in the pot size.

[Renton]

If you would have made it at least 10 to go preflop, it wouldn't have mattered what happened after the flop, because the implied odds wouldn't have been there for villain to chase 2 outs.

I think there is more value in a smaller raise in most games and that line works better with air.

If by more value, you mean incorrect according to Sklansky's theorem, then ok.



^^^^ lukiestyle response^^^^

[Fnord]

If by more value, you mean incorrect according to Sklansky's theorem, then ok.

LMAO.

It depends on how often you'll get a caller for the $10.

Actually, on second thought, dropping the hammer does have more merit out of position. In position, I'm more inclined to give a pocket pair a marginal call because our opponent's range is much wider than that and we figure to get him to put in lots of money post-flop with worse hands quite often even if he folds to our c-bets a lot.

[Renton]

i dunno, on party 50nl my pot size reraises got called a lot

[Miffed22001]

stop talking and start raising goddammit!