doh!! why?????? JJ on bubble with short stack sitting out

[jdubs]

wtf is wrong with me? all I have to do is fold to the money, with the shortest stack out in a few hands, and another short stack below me , to boot. Big stack is a total donkey who has been catching seemingly every flop, and is very very loose. Man I am an idiot!! ( also on a little downswing atm)

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero (t1710)
Button (t9930)
SB (t700)
BB (t1160)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J, J.
Hero raises to t1710, Button calls t1710, 2 folds.

Flop: (t3570) T, 7, A (2 players)

Turn: (t3570) 3 (2 players)

River: (t3570) 5 (2 players)

Final Pot: t3570

Results in white below:
Hero has Jc Jd (one pair, jacks).
Button has 7h Ac (two pair, aces and sevens).
Outcome: Button wins t3570.

[kevster]

Four handed, I don't think this is that bad a push. Playing into the big stack is perhaps the only problem here but you're never folding this hand so maybe raise 400-500 and you can let it go on the river.

However, this raise potentially puts your stack trouble so I don't mind the AI.

[taipan168]

Sorry to be harsh but the push is terrible. You have 17x BB, you're not desperate at all. Why risk the big stack calling you with hands that have you pwned (QQ-AA), flipping (AK, AQ, KQ) or even a 25-30% chance of bubbling (A2-AJ, K2-KJ, Q2-QJ). And if everybody folds, you gain 150 chips, less than 10% of your stack.

I raise to 250-275, fold a raise/push from the big stack and call a push from either shortie. If the big stack calls me, c-bet half-2/3 the pot and shut down if called.

[taipan168]

I wouldn't fold, but I wouldn't raise 17x BB here. Why do it? Make a standard raise and call if the one active shorty pushes (remember the shortest stack is sitting out!).

Why risk being taken out by the big stack when the shortest stack will be out within a few orbits?

[Stripclubjunkie]

Deleted by Police of Stupid

[nogenius]

I would raise to about 250 here.

If re-raised PF, I would follow taipan's line.

If I saw a flop with all unders, I would play it fast.
Depending on my read of the big stack, I may not cont. bet on a A or K-high flop.

[jdubs]

I know taipan, It's horrible!! I dont know why I did it, maybe partly because I have been running bad lately?? Anways thanks for the comments all- just wanted to confirm how dumb of a move this really was..lol

[xtcpoker]

Ill push this if I know the Big stack is going to call me with a lot of hands.. Ill just standard raise it otherwise and push to any raise. You said that the big stack is very loose.. chances are he will blind you down til the shortstack are out.. by that time.. you wil have pretty much nothing to play for first place... Im not dropping JJ here...

[chewbaka]

Id raise 400-500 PF and fold to any aggresion on that flop.

I also don't mind going AI in any circumstances other than if the shortstack is sitting out or if it's an MTT. Its worth the push here in SNG.

I'll play for 1st place. doubling up right now will give me enough ammo for the heads-up.

[Stripclubjunkie]

Id raise 400-500 PF and fold to any aggresion on that flop.

I also don't mind going AI in any circumstances other than if the shortstack is sitting out or if it's an MTT. Its worth the push here in SNG.

I'll play for 1st place. doubling up right now will give me enough ammo for the heads-up.

Its not worth it...

Button (t9930): 22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs
SB (t700): AA+
BB (t1160): 66+,ATs+,AJo+

If its a 11s you earn 4 cents...

[LimpinAintEZ]

the short stacks are not that far from being right where you are at - they double up 1 or 2 times and you are the short stack - For me it comes back to Playing for 1st or playing for ITM - JJ with 4 people left in a SNG is good enough for me to push there - The big stack called you with a crappy hand and just got lucky - I don't think it's a bad move at all - It comes down to If you aren't playing JJ aggressive, what the hell are you playing aggressively????

you do have bad luck with Jacks though - maybe you should just always fold them kidding -

[taipan168]

Those of you who say play for 1st, consider that the short stack is SITTING OUT and will be blinded out within a few orbits. I think this is a situation where you need to play for 3rd. Yes, JJ is a great starting hand but why risk getting knocked out in 4th when you can pretty much guarantee yourself 3rd? Given the relative chip stacks, even if you double up here your stack will be 3600 to the big stack's 8000, you're not guaranteeing yourself 1st by doing this!

AA and KK are the only hands I would consider open pushing with here (and even then I would probably just open with a standard raise but call a push from the big stack).

Also Stripclub, I think your range for big stack is way too tight. OP said he was a donkey who was very very loose, I think he would call with 40% of hands so 22+,A2+,K2+,Q9o+,Q5s+,JTo,J8s+,T9s - which makes this push -0.5% EV.

Plus when you play with SNGPT that little window comes up reminding you that you have >10x BB, consider other strategic options!

[LimpinAintEZ]

if you folding Jacks with 4 players left in a SNG, your playing too tight to win IMO -

[chewbaka]

The only reason I would be holding back here is because the short stacked is sitting out. Otherwise, AI for me.

[taipan168]

if you folding Jacks with 4 players left in a SNG, your playing too tight to win IMO -

I didn't say fold - see my post above. I think nogenius' line is best here.

The only reason I would be holding back here is because the short stacked is sitting out. Otherwise, AI for me.

This would still be a -EV push given OP's read on the bigstack.

[bruinblue]

i agree that you have to play for third here simply because the short stack is sitting out.

while yes, you do want to win, and thats obviously your first goal, i would rather finish 3rd and make the money then finish fourth and feel like an idiot for cashing a guy who wasnt even sitting at the table. If in this example, OP considers big stack a calling station, its just not worth the risk with a free 3rd coming to you

of course if everyones playing, youre not folding JJ 4 handed ever

[jdubs]

yeah the fact that the shortie was sitting out is the main point here.. knowing that big stack will call raises with pretty much anything, and that the guy in 4th will be blinded out in 5-6 hands, makes even folding the jacks preflop a decent decision here I think. If the guy was NOT sitting out, totally different story of course! but yeah, probably the best line was fold everything but KK AA for the next 5-6 hands until he blinds out. Open pushing was just terrible here, in this situation.

[xtcpoker]

If that is so.. it would means that you have to give up as much chips as the guy sitting out. Which will put you down to extremely low amount of chips to do anything with. Another thing is.. even a person whose sitting out can catch cards and stay in. I just finished a $22 sng that had a guy sitting out and it was the bubble... I pretty much ALLIN every hand and they were folding lighting speed. It ended with the guy sitting out making the money and by that time... i had about 18k out of 20k chips..

[jdubs]

If that is so.. it would means that you have to give up as much chips as the guy sitting out. Which will put you down to extremely low amount of chips to do anything with. Another thing is.. even a person whose sitting out can catch cards and stay in. I just finished a $22 sng that had a guy sitting out and it was the bubble... I pretty much ALLIN every hand and they were folding lighting speed. It ended with the guy sitting out making the money and by that time... i had about 18k out of 20k chips..

that is true, but rarely happens. Another argument for fold to the money here is that the other shortie was starting to get very pissed off at the big stack, and may have been on tilt soon- which increases the chance of him busting out as well. So one very possible scenario here is that both shorties bust out and I am heads up with a very very small stack- but have made 2nd simply by folding. I would have hardly any chance of winning 1st but here 2nd or 3rd is practically assured.

[natdang]

Like it's been mentioned previously, it's ok to raise this pf, but there is no sense in pushing and/or risking all your chips beyond a preflop raise