A high flush draw, value bet & put opponent on ranges

[siberian999]

I played this hand yesterday in a $1 Party tournament, and it would be really useful to hear how others would have played it - particularly how you would have bet at each stage, and what hand ranges you put my two opponents on.

I was initially looking at value betting my flush draw, but chickened out when Vorhood put in his first bet of 334.

Thanks

Siberian999

PS - I tried to convert my hand, exactly as it is below, using the hand converter, but all I got out was gobbledegook. Does anyone know what went wrong?



***** Hand History for Game 4760989584 *****
0/0 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 26213906) - Wed Jul 19 09:13:47 EDT 2006
Table Regular(768006) Table 11 (Real Money) -- Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: jansil (8798)
Seat 2: kaathesnake (3086)
Seat 3: LadyJ129 (2148)
Seat 4: zookeepa (1156)
Seat 5: speedrog5 (4592)
Seat 6: siberian999 (3265)
Seat 7: Ickoka1 (5193)
Seat 8: Hog__Wild (3273)
Seat 9: Vorhood (2271)
Seat 10: aufbruch61 (971)
Vorhood posts small blind (30)
aufbruch61 posts big blind (60)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to siberian999 [ 4s, As ]
jansil folds.
kaathesnake folds.
LadyJ129 folds.
zookeepa folds.
speedrog5 folds.
siberian999 calls (60)
Ickoka1 calls (60)
Hog__Wild folds.
Vorhood calls (30)
aufbruch61 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 2s, Qs, 5d ]
Vorhood bets (333)
aufbruch61 folds.
siberian999 folds.
Ickoka1 calls (333)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Ks ]
Vorhood bets (464)
Ickoka1 calls (464)
** Dealing River ** : [ Tc ]
Vorhood checks.
Ickoka1 bets (2026)
Vorhood folds.
** Summary **
Main Pot: 3860
Board: [ 2s Qs 5d Ks Tc ]

jansil balance 8798, didn't bet (folded)
kaathesnake balance 3086, didn't bet (folded)
LadyJ129 balance 2148, didn't bet (folded)
zookeepa balance 1156, didn't bet (folded)
speedrog5 balance 4592, didn't bet (folded)
siberian999 balance 3205, lost 60 (folded)
Ickoka1 balance 6170, bet 2883, collected 3860, net +977
Hog__Wild balance 3273, didn't bet (folded)
Vorhood balance 1414, lost 857 (folded)
aufbruch61 balance 911, lost 60 (folded)

[baudib]

Usually calling overbets with a flush draw is bad, but you also have a straight draw. You are a favorite to win this hand on the flop, assuming your outs are live. The three aces "might" be outs. With a monster draw like this, you have to at least call and probably raise the flop.

[chardrian]

You have twelve "sure" outs on the flop (well actually just eleven, since the 5 spades could possibly give an opp a boat). So you are basically 50/50 of winning this hand by the river. This means you have two options to play the hand (and in this case neither of them would be wrong).

1) call the overbet on the flop and hope an out hits so you can then stack the guy since he is so "invested" in the pot. Using this option should really only be done when you have a huge stack behind you and the flop bet wouldn't be that big of a dent to you - i.e. if you miss your outs on the turn and the opp fires another huge bet on the turn you can dump the hand and feel no real effects from your call on the flop. In this case even after calling the flop you'd have over 4500 chips, and your opp has a nice 1500 stack that you can probably take from him if you do hit, so I like a call here.

2) The other option is simply to push. You know that you are at worst about 50/50 to win the hand and with the dead money in the pot you are getting odds to push and see both the turn and river. This play is never "wrong" but it can be unnecessary. In most cases an overbet on the flop means the opp has a good but vulnerable piece of the flop and just wants to take it down now or wants anyone drawing to have bad odds to chase - the person making such a bet will almost always call your push so fold equity really goes out the window and by pushing you are basically just saying ok I'm willing to take a cointoss to double up.

[Ravageur]

I agree with Chardrian, I would be AI on this flop on most tables no matter what the stakes (unless we were insanely deepstacked in which case a healthy re-raise would be in order), especially in this unraised pot which makes it less likely your opponent has a set (which one of the only hands you're trailing against).

You have fold equity, push and be happy if you get called by top pair/non ace kicker.

[knoedel]

I would just call since I don't want to risk my tournament life on a flip. You definately have odds to call that (especially after the second caller behind you, which of course you couldn't know beforehand.


By the way: You can't value bet a draw. You value bet a made hand that is not great (like Top pair no kicker) but you still think you're ahead.

Minbetting a draw is a pretty obvious play and many experienced players will raise you with air to push you off. I like to dusguise my hand by betting 2/3 of the pot one time and c/r (especially on combo draws), or calling another time.

[siberian999]

Thanks everyone - very useful in helping me get my head around this.

[cobere]

A minor point, I would have raised this up pre-flop. You're late position and first to enter, A4s is good enough to raise. I think the limp just tells your opps that you're on a speculative hand or weak paint.