OOP seta and TAGs

[Irisheyes]

Villian is standard TAG. 22/15/aggro or whatever.
What line extracts the most value?

***** Hand History for Game 4860394204 *****
$400 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, August 02, 11:50:37 ET 2006
Table Table 107251 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: ilkellyp ( $282.60 )
Seat 3: sunnyotis ( $544.15 )
Seat 4: Bereg777 ( $403.60 )
Seat 1: lolYouFoldEZ ( $396 )
Seat 6: sheffield116 ( $455.10 )
Seat 5: DMS4LIFEbro ( $394 )
lolYouFoldEZ posts small blind [$2].
ilkellyp posts big blind [$4].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to lolYouFoldEZ [ 6c 6d ]
sunnyotis folds.
Bereg777 calls [$4].
DMS4LIFEbro raises [$20].
sheffield116 folds.
lolYouFoldEZ calls [$18].
ilkellyp folds.
Bereg777 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jd, 2s, 6s ]
lolYouFoldEZ ??

[gabe]

i lead 75% of the time.

[Fnord]

I check/raise this all-in sometimes.

[andy-akb]

I check/raise this all-in sometimes.

Lets say he pots the flop when checked to, that makes the pot $80 with effective remaining stacks at $334, this is a huge raise and is not going to maximize value at all.

I agree with gabe, we need to be leading this flop. Most aggro players will raise when they are bet into and they were the PFRers becuase they put you on trying to take the pot away from them before they can get their cbet out. The standard line here is to lead into the PFRer with a set out of the blinds, obviously you need to mix it up with some other hands especially at these levels, but we shouldnt default to a c/r AI that just lets hands off way to easily.

[Fnord]

Lets say he pots the flop when checked to, that makes the pot $80 with effective remaining stacks at $334, this is a huge raise and is not going to maximize value at all.

LOL!

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-40166.htm

we shouldnt default to a c/r AI that just lets hands off way to easily.

Don't put words in my mouth.

[andy-akb]

Lets say he pots the flop when checked to, that makes the pot $80 with effective remaining stacks at $334, this is a huge raise and is not going to maximize value at all.

LOL!

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-40166.htm

LOLLOLOLOOOL OMG!

How is this the same at all? There was no checkraise that was a massive overbet of the pot, there was an overbet push on the turn and the entire texture of the board is different. If you want to actually put some input into this discussion then respond as to what you are talking about and your analysis behind all of it, because honestly, that achieves nothing.

Im not saying Im correct, and I very well could be wrong, but atleast Im trying to discuss this so we can come to a conclusion here.

we shouldnt default to a c/r AI that just lets hands off way to easily.

Don't put words in my mouth.

Im not putting words in your mouth at all, ok? This is a forum where people post hands, ask strategy questions, etc. and people respond to help them. In this specific instance a hand was posted asking about the best line. Why would you respond without the best line? If the line you posted is best, why isnt it your default line? Haha, Im sorry but that isnt putting words in your mouth at all, its me making a logical conclusion based on what you posted.

Dont get so defensive and maybe respond to something I actually wrote and explain to me how any of my "assumptions" [Im reluctant to call it an assumption because that carries a connotation of uncertainty] are incorrect.

[Fnord]

For what it's worth, I play at the 100 & 200 level.

Once upon a time Fnord used to fast-play draws on funny boards, but got called down a lot and swung like a chimp. Then he started doing it with strong made hands every now and then and they kept calling him. Even players who seemed to play well called him, it was uncanny. Bad players would even call him on a draw. Those times they didn't call him, it built up the perception of seeing flops for implied odds and added to the general level of mistrust in his future bets since Fnord almost never shows a hand online.

Fnord kept cashing out and lived happily ever after.

The End.

[IowaSkinsFan]

If you lead the flop it looks like 99-QQ feeling for an overpair, which IMO will probably get raised... bingo!

[aislephive]

I lead 25% of the time, check-call 25% of the time, and checkraise the remaining 50% of the time. A bet/3bet ai is pretty scary and while sometimes you induce bluff raises on the flop, when you come back over the top on a relatively dry board like this I think good tags will lay down hands like AJ/QQ to a 3bet ai. A check-raise gets more money in the pot and tends to get less respect in a HU pot, so people often push back with TPTK / overpairs where as they're less likely to call off the rest with one.

[gabe]

i c/r ai here against the right opponents, they have to be kinda suspicious of me

[Setzy]

This isn't my limit, but in any case I think it's better to bet-re-raise then check-raise because of the spade draw on the board. I think a player would be more likely to put you on the spades than the set if you bet out, especially 60-80% of the flop amount. So, what transpired?

[Lukie]

You absolutely have to vary this up against good opponents, else they will quickly learn to exploit you. That said, I'm usually leading out on this flop, but you have to understand that I do this much more frequently then other players in this game. And by 'this', I mean coming out with a very strong lead, not some pussy ass 1/3 pot or 1/2 pot shit.

[Irisheyes]

I check/raise this all-in sometimes.

I shoild be far more likely to do this on a Js Td 6s flop then a Jh 6s 2d one right?

[Irisheyes]

i c/r ai here against the right opponents, they have to be kinda suspicious of me

As in think you are very good or think you're a nutjob?

[arkana]

Probably nutjob.

If someone has seen you play your draws very aggressively then I <3 a CR AI with the right stack sizes just because it looks so much like a combo draw hand. I think you are just a little too deep here, if it was a reraised pot it would be perfect. (This is assuming your opponent is a good thinking player, not some donk who will stack off with his big pair anyway). So I think the default line (leading) is still best with these stack sizes.