ok limp /w implied odds?

[bruinblue]

sb with 5 limpers in front. complete and hope here?

with the flop, whats your line?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP1 (t2230)
MP2 (t1625)
MP3 (t2845)
CO (t1115)
Button (t1625)
Hero (t1440)
BB (t450)
UTG (t1010)
UTG+1 (t1160)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8, 5.
UTG calls t30, 1 fold, MP1 calls t30, MP2 calls t30, 2 folds, Button calls t30, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t180) 8, 5, T (6 players)
Hero ?

[andy-akb]

Fold preflop, you really dont have the implied odds to call this and this is a good case of reverse implied odds. If you do hit you are most likely winning a small pot or losing a big one simply because a board for you to hit is very unlkely to have hit anybody else enough to pay you off.

As played pot the flop.

[strawman]

Over 10-1 odds with a two gapper would meet my completing the blind requirements with this blind level. That being said this isn't exactly the type of flop I would feel too comfortable with since it is two suited and fills in some middle connected or near connected cards like 67, 97, J9. Additionally if the board pairs you might be counterfited. I would consider overbetting the pot here and trying to shut the hand down quickly since you are out of position.

[andy-akb]

Over 10-1 odds with a two gapper would meet my completing the blind requirements with this blind level. That being said this isn't exactly the type of flop I would feel too comfortable with since it is two suited and fills in some middle connected or near connected cards like 67, 97, J9. Additionally if the board pairs you might be counterfited. I would consider overbetting the pot here and trying to shut the hand down quickly since you are out of position.

For us to make money when we hit, our opponent [essentially] needs to hit it as well, and what boards will they hit that is going to allow this to happen. Yea, we are getting 10:1 but what are we to hit two pair [and even then as we see thats not too great] or a strong draws?

Now, you say this board fills in some middle connected cards, none of them have a hand and only have a draw, we are ahead of them and if the board pairs we are couterfeited but we should be able to back down then. If we make a PSB our opponents make a mistake by calling with an OESD, we want them to call here with those hands, we dont want them to fold.

[strawman]

For us to make money when we hit, our opponent [essentially] needs to hit it as well, and what boards will they hit that is going to allow this to happen. Yea, we are getting 10:1 but what are we to hit two pair [and even then as we see thats not too great] or a strong draws?

Now, you say this board fills in some middle connected cards, none of them have a hand and only have a draw, we are ahead of them and if the board pairs we are couterfeited but we should be able to back down then. If we make a PSB our opponents make a mistake by calling with an OESD, we want them to call here with those hands, we dont want them to fold.

Its early in the tournament and Hero is investing about 1% of his stack. The risk/reward ratio here is excellent IMO. Hero hits the flop and is most likely ahead right now which is a good accomplishment considering the starting hand. So from my interpretation you are saying that either Hero needs to extract even more in order to justify his loose preflop call or should only call preflop with hands that his opponent can hit otherwise he can't make money playing hands like 85o in the SB?

And yes you want opponents to make mistakes, however Hero is in the SB and there are still 5 other players to act so a pot sized bet might be fine with one or two opponents, however with 5 half the deck could be poisonous and that isn't exactly a situation I want to be in with bottom two. So the question at this point is what should be done with the hand that probably has the best EV. The reason I prefer an overbet is that I think it has the better potential since it builds a bigger pot with what is likely the best hand right now, will shake loose some of the riff raff, and still has a good chance of being called, especially by those with strong draws such as 67(d), 79(d) or J9(d). Bottom two pair on a fairly coordinated board with with a flush draw against multiple opponents makes me a little defensive so I prefer to play them a little quickly on the flop.

[vqc]

limp is standard
3/4 to 1 pot.
i generally make it 3/4

[Fnord]

I don't think pre-flop matters much. I save myself the drama and pitch it.

If this is a low buy-in I would just c/r bomb it all-in and perhaps even get away without putting any chips in the pot post-flop. They will make all sorts of terrible calls for absurd amounts of money, yet won't let you 3-bet bomb this with the best hand often enough.

[taipan168]

The way I look at it is this. The odds of hitting two pair are 2.2%, so for Hero to have correct implied odds to call here he needs to win at least (1/0.022) * 15 chips = 682 chips to make the preflop call profitable. There is 180 in the pot on the flop so Hero needs to extract another 500 chips to have implied odds for the preflop call. I would say this is much more likely to happen if the flop was A85 rather than T85. The difficulty of ensuring that Hero does in fact get 682 chips for his trouble is why I usually just fold this preflop.

That said, as played I would overbet the pot (say t200) and hope to get called, and bet any non-scary turn hard.

[Ravageur]

Yeah, this definitely calls for a check-raise AI no matter who donks it out for how much.

Checkraise AI is better than leading out because so many turns make your hand that much weaker if you get two callers or even one.
You want to get your stack in on the flop, and not on the turn/river.

[vqc]

i concur, CRing isnt bad either

[taipan168]

What if the hand checks around and the turn card comes scary?

[andy-akb]

Its early in the tournament and Hero is investing about 1% of his stack. The risk/reward ratio here is excellent IMO. Hero hits the flop and is most likely ahead right now which is a good accomplishment considering the starting hand. So from my interpretation you are saying that either Hero needs to extract even more in order to justify his loose preflop call or should only call preflop with hands that his opponent can hit otherwise he can't make money playing hands like 85o in the SB?

Im saying that this is a good situation for reverse implied odds. Yes, the hero hit the board here, in this situation, what are the odds for flopping two pair? This situation wont come up often and when it does we are most likely not getting any action because the board is so unlikely to hit anybody else. So again, we will most likely bet and take the pot down here, or bet and get raised or called in several spots and not really know where we are at and instead start playing for stacks with a hand that isnt very strong.

And yes you want opponents to make mistakes, however Hero is in the SB and there are still 5 other players to act so a pot sized bet might be fine with one or two opponents, however with 5 half the deck could be poisonous and that isn't exactly a situation I want to be in with bottom two. So the question at this point is what should be done with the hand that probably has the best EV. The reason I prefer an overbet is that I think it has the better potential since it builds a bigger pot with what is likely the best hand right now, will shake loose some of the riff raff, and still has a good chance of being called, especially by those with strong draws such as 67(d), 79(d) or J9(d). Bottom two pair on a fairly coordinated board with with a flush draw against multiple opponents makes me a little defensive so I prefer to play them a little quickly on the flop.

If this isnt a situation you want to be in the dont limp with 85o because this is about the best situation you can realistically hope for, a multiway pot where you have two pair and probably will get called by a worse hand if you bet. There really arent many situations where Id advocate an overbet and I dont think its needed here.

After thinking about it I agree with Fnord on his two sentiments, prefllop just doesnt matter much as long as you are comfortable postflop and can save your stack if its obvious you are beat. I also think a c/r AI isnt bad either and is the best way we could get paid off.

So basically preflop doesnt matter much, if you are comfortable postflop and arent scared about playing a hand like bottom two OOP in a multiway pot.

[Fnord]

What if the hand checks around and the turn card comes scary?

check/fold

[natdang]

I'd fold preflop, but as played, BOMBS AWAY AT THE FLOP

[taipan168]

What if the hand checks around and the turn card comes scary?

check/fold

Isn't this why you lead the flop to try to build a pot, if anybody raises then push?

[vqc]

this was going to be posted last night but my intertron died

What if the hand checks around and the turn card comes scary?

then ur SOL and hope to play a small pot and see a showdown

this hand really isnt the BEST example for a CR out of the SB
a better flop to illustrate the idea wouldve been something like
u hold Ks5c

Flop is KhJd5h
here is a really really really good time to CR

in the OP hand I dont mind leading
but what Fnord is saying is that often on a board that is this draw heavy u wont be able to get folds and a bet here really isnt going to protect ur hand. What will protect ur hand is a strong CR.
U can find more info about this in SSLHE, in the section titled, when betting will not protect ur hand.

[Fnord]

What Fnord is saying is that loose/passive terrible poker players won't raise up worse hands often enough on this board, particularly draws. Hence by betting out you're setting yourself up for reading Chicken Entrails and Tea Leaves as first to act on the turn. However, someone will probably bet something if you check this. Then just slam in all of the money and watch all sorts of retarded calls made by a bunch of players who haven't a clue how to play deep money and/or believe in the deep stack early bull.

If the action gets really crazy by the time it gets to you, pretend your hand is 72 offsuit and try not to think much of it.

"I don't play cash games online, I lose too much money" - Overheard in a local cardroom.

[vqc]

What Fnord is saying is that loose/passive terrible poker players won't raise up worse hands often enough on this board, particularly draws. Hence by betting out you're setting yourself up for reading Chicken Entrails and Tea Leaves come the turn. However, someone will probably bet something if you check this. Then just slam in all of the money and watch all sorts of retarded calls made by a bunch of players who haven't a clue how to play deep money and/or believe in the deep stack early bull.

If the action gets really crazy by the time it gets to you, pretend your hand is 72 offsuit and try not to think much of it.

"I don't play cash games online, I lose too much money" - Overheard in a local cardroom.

aka
when betting wont protect ur hand but CRing makes u boatloads of money.