Frustration with $5-10 PS SnGs

[west13]

First of all, here is my poker background. I've been playing online for about 3 months, mostly $5 SnGs, some $10 SnGs. Played in a few $10 - 20 person max tourneys at a friends house over the last few years. I try to understand EV and ICM, but still can't quite find the time to analyze hands I've been in to truly get valuable info from SnGPowertools or Pokerstove. I'm down about $250 playing on pokerstars at the moment. I've played about 250 SnGs total.

Here are my problems I believe:
I can't put opponents on a range of hands for several reasons. Seems as if 95% of the time I never see what they hold when observing the table due to players folding. Not sure how I can get a read on players when I so rarely see what they hold (with the obvious exceptions).

I am baffled by so many minimum raises. I see most players min raise in the tourneys I have been in. I simply can't understand how so many people 'slow play' a solid hand at this level. It contradicts everything I have read.

I see players calling down to the river with absolutely nothing, last tourney I watched a player just calling solid raises and take down a large pot holding 8/4 off suit hitting a 4 on the river vs someone holding AK. I am not sure how to play against this. Seems like a crapshoot most of the time.

I am trying to improve my poker skills (while having fun), I asked awhile back if I should step up to the next level of buy in, but was told 'no', if I can't consistently win against the $5 SnGs I have no business moving up.

Sad thing is I did great my first month before trying to truly understand and analyzing hand histories.

Is it about learning? I layed down AA after the flop with an obvious staight on the board recently for the first time thinking this was progression (in the past I was too attached to my hand regardless of flop), but sometimes I feel playing at this level is not progressing, due to such random play by my opponents.

I am not trying to imply I am a better player than my opponents, I have a lot to learn, and am fairly new to the game still. This was not intended to be a rant that my opponents are all idiots. I just have a very hard time applying the concepts I have read here on these boards and in books to my SnGs.

Bottom line: keep playing at this level, quit online poker, seriously analyze hands with SnG powertools in my free time instead of playing every night, or move up to a bigger buy-in?

[taipan168]

I sympathise with you, I ran great at the PS $5.50s, then so far over about 70 $11 normals I'm breakeven

My suggestions are as follows:

1. Post more hands, if necessary post whole tourneys using the tournament trimmer (in the poker tools section).
2. Find somebody to look through your whole HHs. I for one would be happy (time permitting) to look through your HHs, PM me if you're interested.
3. One painful lesson that I've learned is don't get fancy at the low buyins. There's no need for fancy slowplays, check-raises, stop 'n' gos, etc. at the $5.50s. Wait for good hands and bet them hard. Eg. if you have 55, everybody limps, you limp from the button and the flop comes A85, bet bet bet! You will get paid off by some idiot who limped with A3 soooooted. This includes the AK vs 84 hand you described, if you raise preflop, get called, miss the flop, c-bet, get called again, SHUT DOWN unless you hit.
4. You don't necessarily need to wait for opps to showdown their hands to get a read. Stats like VPIP and preflop raise can tell you a lot of what you need to know about whether a player is loose or tight.
5. Agree with you about the minraises, they are frustrating as hell. I'm honestly not sure about how to fight them apart from 3 above.
6. Don't move up, keep on playing the $5.50s until you can beat them for a good ROI. There are bad players at the $11s/$22s but in general they are tougher.
7. Make sure that your bubble/shorthanded play is good and that you always make +EV pushes/folds/calls. This is much harder than it sounds, particularly in the heat of battle.
8. Make the time to review your HHs/run them through SNGPT. If that means playing one less SNG then so be it, it is time well spent.
9. Perhaps try playing some turbos, the change of structure makes you think about your game somewhat differently and really helps to optimise your push/fold game. After getting tired of running breakeven at the $11 normals I switched to the $6.50 turbos and had roughly 20% ROI over a small sample of 220 games and am currently attempting to move up to the $16 turbos.

Over the long term (remember poker is a long term game, with long term meaning thousands not hundreds of SNGs) you will win against these idiots who make -EV calls preflop, call down to the river with crap, call against the odds with their flush draws, play too loose, etc.

Hang in there, from your posts you sound like you are on the right track, you'll come good!

[ReLOADeD]

nice post Taipan

[fjuanl]

taipan just summed up what i was going to say. 5's and 10's are easiily beatable without having to do anything tricky. oh, and you should always be greatful for bad players

[west13]

Much thanks, very encouraging post and I will hang in there and make a bigger effort to review my hand histories. Really appreciate the time you spent.


Here is my last HH, I think I played it corrcetly but I'd love some crticism:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG+1 (t1470)
MP1 (t1935)
MP2 (t2185)
Hero (t1415)
CO (t1425)
Button (t1410)
SB (t1060)
BB (t1265)
UTG (t1335)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q, Q.
UTG calls t30, 1 fold, MP1 calls t30, 1 fold, Hero raises to t150, 2 folds, SB calls t135, 1 fold, UTG calls t120, MP1 calls t120.

Flop: (t630) 7, 3, 8 (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets t700, SB folds, UTG folds, MP1 raises to t1785, Hero calls t565 (All-In).

Turn: (t3680) 6 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t3680) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t3680

[laivu6]

why bet 700? i'd bet around 500 (and that's only a beginner's question, nothing more)

[west13]

why bet 700? i'd bet around 500 (and that's only a beginner's question, nothing more)

I believe it was a pot size bet. I tried to mix it up a little as to not get any read on me.

[anarchoi]

Excellent post Taipan168 - I agree 100% with you.

West : I think what you are going through is complete natural and most players will go through several of these stages with a negative roi%. Sometimes simply because of a downswing but other times because they have learned something new (from a book or forums) and gets to eager to use these new skills, and then overuse them with a negative result.
I know it happens to me everytime I read a book or buy some software who should improve my game - at first it goes horrible but slowly you understand more and more of what you are doing and why and the results will improve drastically.

Just do what Taipan said

[taipan168]

West - re your QQ hand, I agree with laivu, bet a little less on the flop - 550-600 should do it - and call the push. That flop is a good one for you, I'm not laying QQ down here. If he has a set then nh, gg, fire up a new one.

For what it's worth, and not that it would really make that much of a difference, I would raise a little more preflop (to 180-200) to try to thin the field a bit more.

[Staresy]

I'm ok with the raise amount pf, but I agree that 500-600 is fine as a flop bet.

[Waterdick]

I would raise a little more preflop (to 180-200) to try to thin the field a bit more.

Isn't 5x BB a good enough raise as the opening raiser... how would he know that 4 ppl would called? If I knew I would be up against 4 then I would raise more or if there were more limpers, but in this situation isnt 5x BB sufficient?

[taipan168]

I would raise a little more preflop (to 180-200) to try to thin the field a bit more.

Isn't 5x BB a good enough raise as the opening raiser... how would he know that 4 ppl would called? If I knew I would be up against 4 then I would raise more or if there were more limpers, but in this situation isnt 5x BB sufficient?

At low Stars buyins at 15/30 blinds I usually raise 4x BB plus 1BB for each limper, I find that smaller raises just don't get those damn limpers to fold.

[doctorgonzo]

Great post. I have been doing poorly at the $10+1 SNG at Stars lately after doing great at the $5+0.50 level. I know that some of it is my own stupidity, mainly being impatient and just being distracted. But some things really frustrate me, like people who slowplay TPTK and give absolutely no read on what they are holding.

I'll learn, I know it.

[swiggidy]

I see players calling down to the river with absolutely nothing, last tourney I watched a player just calling solid raises and take down a large pot holding 8/4 off suit hitting a 4 on the river vs someone holding AK. I am not sure how to play against this. Seems like a crapshoot most of the time.

You will learn to love this. I made a thread with my happiest moments.

Bottom line: keep playing at this level, quit online poker, seriously analyze hands with SnG powertools in my free time instead of playing every night, or move up to a bigger buy-in?

Keep playing at this level, but make time for analyzing your hands. Post more HH. GL

FYI, I ran 0% ROI over my first 100 $5 SnGs at PS, then ran 55% ROI over the last 30. So you may have some variance problems mixed in.

[swiggidy]

I am baffled by so many minimum raises. I see most players min raise in the tourneys I have been in. I simply can't understand how so many people 'slow play' a solid hand at this level. It contradicts everything I have read.

Maybe this will make you feel better:

It is a $4-180 man. I haven't been paying attention to the table even though it's ITM at the last two tables. This guy had been folding from the SB 80% of the time. I know that dumbass low limit players min-raise with their good hands. However I decided that I would punish him for being stupid, even though my read should have indicated strength. Plus my stack is way to big for an overpush with a mediocre hand.

I'm about 9 of 14 in chips.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t800 (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP (t28380)
CO (t57116)
Button (t12609)
SB (t27246)
Hero (t19870)
UTG (t15124)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8, A.
4 folds, SB raises to t1600, Hero raises to t19820, SB calls t18220.

Flop: (t39840) J, 9, K (2 players)

Turn: (t39840) 7 (2 players)

River: (t39840) 7 (2 players)

Final Pot: t39840

Results in white below:
Hero has 8s Ac (one pair, sevens).
SB has Jh Ah (two pair, jacks and sevens).
Outcome: SB wins t39840.

[TLR]

taipan said most of the important stuff very clearly.

I will add a bit of my thoughts: One of the things that happened to me at a beginner at the $5.5, is that I read a lot of FTR and strategy guide and was expecting other players to play 'correctly' - fold to a bet that does not give them odds, overanalyze their moves etc...
Once you realize that most of the people at this level simply dont know how to play this game life becomes much easier.

In low level Sngs ($5.5, maybe the $11) ABC poker wins. Tight early, maniac on the bubble and ITM and you are golden.

Dont worry about varying your play so people wont get reads on you - they simply dont pay attention.

While usually TPTK is a very good hand but not good enough to risk your entire stack on, in the $5.5 it is usually golden.

People at the $5.5 like to slowplay a lot, it takes a while to distinguish between someone slowplaying a set and someone chasing a str8, you will learn the difference in a while.

[xtcpoker]

Adjust to the level that your playing... Don't let what you read in those books change your game too much from your current level. I'm currently teaching my gf how to play sng by reviewing her hand with pokerxfactor software. Maybe you can join there and use their tools to review your HH. Its great to find your leaks when you can see it plays and find whatever hands fast.

[jdubs]

Taipan nailed it . Nice post man. yeah most important thing in the 5 and 10s is value betting. You will get paid by people who catch low pairs, or have overcards, or who are just generally calling stations. One thing to be careful of because of this is not to C bet into these people, they are clueless and will just dumbly keep calling your c bets down. Of course there are plenty of weak/tight players at this level who will also fold to those same cbets- you just have to determine who they are, through careful observation.

Also, at this level, you have to realize many many people will go all the way ( put all their chips in) on something like TPWK, and so you shouldnt be afraid of them, if you hold AQ and raised before the flop, flop comes Q xx and they reraise you with Q 10 . Of course, again you have to determine who these people are, but believe me there are lots of them! Also , many many players here are just lost when it comes to the bubble, and will easily donate their chips to your blind steals, waiting for that "one good hand" . Punish them.

[TLR]

One more thing, at this buy in 4-5BB raise is a better move then 3BB raise

[taipan168]

I might collate the thoughts in this thread into one post so Vincent can sticky it. I don't want to create yet another strategy post and I know it's been done before but maybe it's a dos and don'ts for low buyin SNG success...

[TLR]

Good idea