Whats the plan for the hand?

[Irisheyes]

No reads.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP ($199.50)
Hero ($357.41)
SB ($311.04)
BB ($262.50)
UTG ($41.65)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T, 8. SB posts a blind of $1.
2 folds, Hero raises to $8, SB (poster) raises to $13, 1 fold, Hero calls $6.

Flop: ($30) 8, J, 9 (2 players)
SB bets $24.7, Hero ??

[CavemanWins]

I normally fold to a re-raise on a blind steal with grabage, unless I have reads otherwise. This your normal line?

Unless you flop a rare killer, you set yourself up for tough situations like this.

I suppose because of implied odds, a call is in order and re-evaluate on the turn.

[andy-akb]

Without reads Im folding preflop. If I know how my opponent plays and is weak and will check the turn if he whiffed then Ill float this and bet a checked turn. I dont really like a raise because I really doubt we are folding any better hands and if he is drawing to the flush we should be able to not pay him off if it hits.

Why are we calling the preflop 3bet without any reads?

[gabe]

i dont fold this preflop because its a minreraise. 150bb stacks + minreraise = implied odds.

[andy-akb]

i dont fold this preflop because its a minreraise. 150bb stacks + minreraise = implied odds.

Just noticed the stacks, I think this call is ok, but only if we are comfortable playing it in spots like this post flop. I personally dont think I would be without a read so Id fold.

[IowaSkinsFan]

If he is tight enough I'd push, I don't think he is calling with any hand but a straight or a set.

[Renton]

you guys are fucking nuts if you are folding ANYTHING preflop for 6 more dollars in this spot

[Renton]

OP: I would probably call and fold to turn aggression unless I hit.

A sucker who miniraises a big hand from out of position is not folding it no matter what the flop/action is. Just peel one off and stack him.

[aislephive]

Folding preflop to a min-reraise is bad, it's not like our hand is hopeless. T8o has a lot of straight possibilities. As played I wouldn't fault a raise here, we're not far behind any overpair (worst case scenario is being up against QQ). If his min-reraising range is wide to include a lot of hands then I think a raise is best and obviously call a push. Otherwise just calling the flop is best.

[gabe]

you guys are fucking nuts if you are folding ANYTHING preflop for 6 more dollars in this spot

i think folding something like a7o is fine

[andy-akb]

As played I wouldn't fault a raise here, we're not far behind any overpair (worst case scenario is being up against QQ). If his min-reraising range is wide to include a lot of hands then I think a raise is best and obviously call a push. Otherwise just calling the flop is best.

OP: I would probably call and fold to turn aggression unless I hit.

A sucker who miniraises a big hand from out of position is not folding it no matter what the flop/action is. Just peel one off and stack him.

Im not really sure what to think about all of this. Are we putting our hand as being ahead of our opponents? If we are behind, do we think our opponent is going to put any more money into the pot if a 4card straight is on the board?

Folding preflop probably would be a mistake, I didnt really look at the size of the reraise, for me personally though I dont like playing a reraised pot with a marginal hand deepstacked against an opponent I have no reads on.

[aislephive]

As played I wouldn't fault a raise here, we're not far behind any overpair (worst case scenario is being up against QQ). If his min-reraising range is wide to include a lot of hands then I think a raise is best and obviously call a push. Otherwise just calling the flop is best.

OP: I would probably call and fold to turn aggression unless I hit.

A sucker who miniraises a big hand from out of position is not folding it no matter what the flop/action is. Just peel one off and stack him.

Im not really sure what to think about all of this. Are we putting our hand as being ahead of our opponents? If we are behind, do we think our opponent is going to put any more money into the pot if a 4card straight is on the board?

Folding preflop probably would be a mistake, I didnt really look at the size of the reraise, for me personally though I dont like playing a reraised pot with a marginal hand deepstacked against an opponent I have no reads on.

We are calling strictly from a value perspective, we have a lot of outs if we're behind even if they aren't well disguised.

Considering the stacks this is a very easy preflop call. It's not a great hand but it isn't one that will get us into a lot of trouble or make many obvious second best hands that are difficult to get away from. I call min-reraises with anything if stacks are full, although I think dropping weak offsuit aces is probably best even to a min-reraise, but hands that are connected and / or suited are easy calls.

[bdawg56kg]

I'd just call here, and maybe bluff if a club or jack hits and he checks.

[Ash256]

What are the chances that SB has AK/AQ and is trying to sucker KQ etc. in? The min-reraise smells like QQ+ to me, but I'm not totally sure. AQ/AK gets folded to a raise here. Against KK, for instance, we have 10 outs. How much fold equity do we have here to justify raising? Is SB going to want to push KK on this board, considering Irisheyes' looseness? QQ would be the worst case scenario here methinks.

[SmackinYaUp]

I'm counting 13 outs against KK/AA unless I'm mising something.

We definitely don't have much implied odds because all your outs are going to look scary to him. You're about 42% to win this hand if it gets allin on the flop against kings or aces though. Queens and below are going to give you a tougher time. I'd either raise or call and leaning towards call.

[Rondavu]

i dont fold this preflop because its a minreraise. 150bb stacks + minreraise = implied odds.

Just noticed the stacks, I think this call is ok, but only if we are comfortable playing it in spots like this post flop. I personally dont think I would be without a read so Id fold.

If you're not getting into spots like this, then you're missing out on a lot of value. I love it when I raise a connector and get reraised with deep stacks. It's like christmas, only different. My advice, get comfortable in spots like this, and do it yesterday.

let's look at the poker conversation...

You raise connector: "Hey I'm a crafty bitch"
He reraises (but not enough): "Hey I'm confident with my super premo hand yo"
You call: "Hey, I have an impossible hand to read, and wow a strange straight! Rebuy sucka"

[Miffed22001]

i dont fold this preflop because its a minreraise. 150bb stacks + minreraise = implied odds.

Just noticed the stacks, I think this call is ok, but only if we are comfortable playing it in spots like this post flop. I personally dont think I would be without a read so Id fold.

If you're not getting into spots like this, then you're missing out on a lot of value. I love it when I raise a connector and get reraised with deep stacks. It's like christmas, only different. My advice, get comfortable in spots like this, and do it yesterday.

let's look at the poker conversation...

You raise connector: "Hey I'm a crafty bitch"
He reraises (but not enough): "Hey I'm confident with my super premo hand yo"
You call: "Hey, I have an impossible hand to read, and wow a strange straight! Rebuy sucka"

lol

nh sir

[Ash256]

I'm counting 13 outs against KK/AA unless I'm mising something.

I'd only just woken up.

It seems waiting a while for breakfast = -EV.

[andy-akb]

i dont fold this preflop because its a minreraise. 150bb stacks + minreraise = implied odds.

Just noticed the stacks, I think this call is ok, but only if we are comfortable playing it in spots like this post flop. I personally dont think I would be without a read so Id fold.

If you're not getting into spots like this, then you're missing out on a lot of value. I love it when I raise a connector and get reraised with deep stacks. It's like christmas, only different. My advice, get comfortable in spots like this, and do it yesterday.

Never did I say I dont get into spots like this, you missed the part where I said without a read or atleast stats. If Im at a table Im going to have stats on nearly every player there and they arent going to be tiny samples either.

Thats beside the point though. My first post was made without noticing the minraise [preflop math is messed up too] or stacks for that matter which both play a huge roll in this and I said it would probably be a mistake to fold. I should have simply asked, "How are we both deeper than 100BBs and have no reads or stats on our opponent?" Maybe Hero just sat and won a decent pot early on, Im not sure.

But yes, as played even without reads we should be calling given its a minraise, lets get past this part for right now.

On this flop a lot of people are suggesting to call, not fold, and I dont disagree I just wish somebody would post a little more reasoning. Without reads, can we expect our villain to put anymore money in if any of our straight outs hit? What if the the Qc hits on the turn and its checked to us, we lead and are c/red? What if he leads that turn? Are we planning on calling and bluffing the turn if checked to?

We are calling strictly from a value perspective, we have a lot of outs if we're behind even if they aren't well disguised.

Where exactly is the value here and why does it lead us to make a call? If we are calling because of our outs then I disagree because we do not have the immediate odds and I really doubt we have the implied odds on our draw either, using scare cards [or simply our opponent showing weakness on the turn] could change that but it turns our hand into a semibluff at best. If we are calling because we have a pair then shouldnt we raise simply because there are so many scare cards for us on the turn? Are we factoring in our opponents possible range here? Are all of our outs good?

In the op we were asked what our plan would be, and most only posted saying a line or two without really going deeper than that. Im glad we talked about the preflop decision, but we need to know how to play pots like this postflop to profit from those preflop choices.

I personally am not sure what the "right" choice is or why, thats why Im really interested to see some more reasoning going along with people's posts.

Im curious though, what do people think about raising this flop?

[aislephive]

We are calling strictly from a value perspective, we have a lot of outs if we're behind even if they aren't well disguised.

Where exactly is the value here and why does it lead us to make a call? If we are calling because of our outs then I disagree because we do not have the immediate odds and I really doubt we have the implied odds on our draw either, using scare cards [or simply our opponent showing weakness on the turn] could change that but it turns our hand into a semibluff at best. If we are calling because we have a pair then shouldnt we raise simply because there are so many scare cards for us on the turn? Are we factoring in our opponents possible range here? Are all of our outs good?

In the op we were asked what our plan would be, and most only posted saying a line or two without really going deeper than that. Im glad we talked about the preflop decision, but we need to know how to play pots like this postflop to profit from those preflop choices.

I personally am not sure what the "right" choice is or why, thats why Im really interested to see some more reasoning going along with people's posts.

Im curious though, what do people think about raising this flop?[/quote]

We are getting over 2-1 on a call and we have 13 probable outs, plus the chance we have the best hand or the possibillity a club rolls off and we can represent it or take the free card. Not to mention we have position which is pretty key, OOP I'd be a lot more likely to dump it. You have to at least call this once on the flop for the reasons mentioned above. Probably folding unimproved to a hefty turn bet.

Raising is probably neutral in EV or slightly +EV, but has a lot of variance. I think it's an ok spot to raise the flop if their range is wide to make a min-reraise preflop. Some people will do it often to attain the betting lead, while others do it with big pairs hoping they get action and then go busto on even the ugliest flops. This draw doesn't feature a whole lot of implied odds as in being able to stack somebody if we hit, but you could still make a fair amount if you do hit. People have a hard time laying down overpairs even on dangerous boards. Also, calling is good in general so your opponent knows you're willing to take a stand against him and won't let yourself get pushed around.

[aislephive]

We are calling strictly from a value perspective, we have a lot of outs if we're behind even if they aren't well disguised.

Where exactly is the value here and why does it lead us to make a call? If we are calling because of our outs then I disagree because we do not have the immediate odds and I really doubt we have the implied odds on our draw either, using scare cards [or simply our opponent showing weakness on the turn] could change that but it turns our hand into a semibluff at best. If we are calling because we have a pair then shouldnt we raise simply because there are so many scare cards for us on the turn? Are we factoring in our opponents possible range here? Are all of our outs good?

In the op we were asked what our plan would be, and most only posted saying a line or two without really going deeper than that. Im glad we talked about the preflop decision, but we need to know how to play pots like this postflop to profit from those preflop choices.

I personally am not sure what the "right" choice is or why, thats why Im really interested to see some more reasoning going along with people's posts.

Im curious though, what do people think about raising this flop?

We are getting over 2-1 on a call and we have 13 probable outs, plus the chance we have the best hand or the possibillity a club rolls off and we can represent it or take the free card. Not to mention we have position which is pretty key, OOP I'd be a lot more likely to dump it. You have to at least call this once on the flop for the reasons mentioned above. Probably folding unimproved to a hefty turn bet.

Raising is probably neutral in EV or slightly +EV, but has a lot of variance. I think it's an ok spot to raise the flop if their range is wide to make a min-reraise preflop. Some people will do it often to attain the betting lead, while others do it with big pairs hoping they get action and then go busto on even the ugliest flops. This draw doesn't feature a whole lot of implied odds as in being able to stack somebody if we hit, but you could still make a fair amount if you do hit. People have a hard time laying down overpairs even on dangerous boards. Also, calling is good in general so your opponent knows you're willing to take a stand against him and won't let yourself get pushed around.