Sometimes I wonder why we even play poker???

[Wyldfoxx]

This is my first post so bare with me.
My poker name is Wyldfoxx. I play on FullTiltPoker.com and UltimateBet.net
My primary game is No Limit Texas Holdem' MTT.
But... I do play ring games and dabble in Omaha and Razz.

The reason I post today is to find advice and insight into my struggle with the game of poker. I recently qualified for Round 2 of Full Tilt Poker's WSOP seat giveaway TWO times back 2 back. In the last Round 1tourney I accomplished a second place finish using my A game. What blows my mind is that I only made it to the second blinds level in Round 2 both times. Now I admit that my nerves have made it hard to play my A game, and I'm willing to blame those failures on myslef. But since then all I want to do is take a SHOTGUN to my monitor! For the last 4 days IN A ROW. I have been busted out over and over and over by some maniac going all in with rags and cracking my monsters!!!

The latest bout I had AA in early-middle position (not the best but I figured in the situation it's ok) on the FIRST hand of the MTT. The UTG called the BB into the game so I raised 3 x the BB which was $90. I got 3 callers pre-flop; late-middle, button, and UTG. The flop comes 4c ks 10c. The button raised $150, the UTG folded, I raised it to $300, the LM folded. The Turn comes 8h and the button goes ALL IN. My thought was "Yes this guy MUST be a donkey and now I have him!" so I go ALL IN as well. Well the cards flipped and he has 10h 8d!!! I think to myself I FINALLY get AA and some maniac calls my pre-flop raise with rags and my re-raise on the flop with only middle pair! WHY! WHY! WHY!

I can't for the life of me figure out WHY??? Why is it that all the crazy maniac newbie donkeys can make absolutely REDICULOUS plays and they "seem" to ALWAYS WIN!!!

The only mistake I think I made was this... instead of only min raising post flop I should have raised it maybe to $600 or maybe $750. The only thing that REALLY angers me is the fact that he probably would have called ANYWAY!!!

Somebody PLEASE tell me why WE are even playing poker, when it seems to be more and more about luck of the draw instead of skill and mathmatics. (which is what made me LOVE this game in the first place!) HELP!!!

[Rockymv]

funny response:

i don't know man, i usually run g00t.

[deadgoat]

pay child support, that's why I play

[givememyleg]

[Rockymv]

serious response:

You have some serious misconceptions about poker.

1. You're not as good as you think you are. In fact, you're probably not very far from a "newbie donkey" yourself. Humble yourself, study up and learn.

2. Poker is a long term game. I mean LONG term. Especially MTTs. If you want to take poker seriously, you're going to experience a sick amount of variance. You've got to understand that your post sounds absolutely ridiculous to anyone with any amount of experience, because you're totally distraught over a sample size that is laughably small.

3. The hand you described doesn't make sense. How is the button acting first on the flop and turn? I sure hope you're not checking to him.

[Wyldfoxx]

Thanks for the reply Rockymv... I'm freely willing to admit that I NEED a tremendous amout of experience, your never done learning. As for your 2nd point I think my lack of time shows off well in your comments. I have no idea what you mean by variance? or sample size for that matter. As for your 3rd point the button does act first after the flop. right?

[givememyleg]

Thanks for the reply Rockymv... I'm freely willing to admit that I NEED a tremendous amout of experience, your never done learning. As for your 2nd point I think my lack of time shows off well in your comments. I have no idea what you mean by variance? or sample size for that matter. As for your 3rd point the button does act first after the flop. right?

If you get dealt AA 10 times, you may lose 6 of them. If you get dealt AA 100 times, you will likely lose less (and sometimes a lot less) than 15-20.

[Assume solid player]Over 10,000 hands you might lose money. Your big pairs might not be holding up... your hands might getting rivered. Over 100,000 hands you will see everything coming together. Over 1,000,000 hands everything should be put into place.

The small sample is what varience is. Over short term bad things can happen, and you can lose money. If you keep it together, don't tilt, and stay a winning player, you will get over varience. As rocky said, poker is heavily long term.

You need more experience. You need to play more. But, before you play more I strongly suggest reading/studying. The button is always the last to act after the flop. The sb is first, than bb, than utg... etc etc. I think you may have just gotten lingo mixed up (I hope)... but this shows you need to learn a lot more about the game before you try to take any serious effort to become a winning player. It takes time and if you put the effort down, you can be successful. There are some great beginning articles in the beginner's digest... start with those. Learn the basics, then start reading more advanced strategy.

Lastly, you want to play against bad players. I hear it all the time... "I just can't play against these terrible donks, they call with anything!!!!" If you can't beat bad players, how do you expect to beat good players? Give me a table full of donks over a table full of players who know how to play the game. Good players make money exploiting bad players.

Just stick with it man... there is no substitute for experience.

[Anaemik]

The latest bout I had AA in early-middle position (not the best but I figured in the situation it's ok) on the FIRST hand of the MTT.

AA is always good times for me, regardless of my position.

The UTG called the BB into the game so I raised 3 x the BB which was $90. I got 3 callers pre-flop; late-middle, button, and UTG.

With someone already limping into the pot, a 3x BB raise is a little too timid. With a hand like AA, it doesn't play well in a multiway pot, so to isolate down to one player, I'd be looking to raise between 4-6x BB here. Early stages of a tournament when the blinds are still low, you aren't going to get far rasing to 3x BB when there were already 2.5 BBs in the pot. If anything, you're sweetening the pot for any drawing hands that might be out there, which is exactly what you don't want to do. You got another caller after you, which means, by the time it get's to the button, he has to call 3 BBs into a pot of 8.5 BBs, giving him almost 3-1 on his money. Given he also has a positional advantage over everyone else at the table once the flop hits, I can understand exactly why he would call with a hand like T8. He might not be as big a donk as you think he is.

The flop comes 4c ks 10c. The button raised $150, the UTG folded, I raised it to $300, the LM folded.

The button acted first? There's two clubs on the board, anyone holding QJ has an open ended straight draw, there's 4 people in the pot, and you're checking this hand round to the button? You're inviting trouble for your hand here. You want to take this hand down here and now. Make a proper pot sized bet. There's almost $400 in the pot. That would be my bet. Instead, it gets checked round to button who makes a bet of under half the pot. Your minraise is WAY too weak. With the button's bet, the pot is now about $550, and your raise brings the pot up to about $850. Even if no-one else calls, youre offering the button a price of over 5-1 to take another card. With 2 more 10's and 3 more 8's in the deck, the button has a 4.5-1 chance of improving his hand to two pair or better by the river.

The Turn comes 8h and the button goes ALL IN.

The button has already committed a large portion of his chips to this hand. All in is the sensible bet here - he's managed to see the draws out there, even if you didn't, and now he wants to finish this hand here and now. I can't fault his play at all here. In fact, I can't fault his play at any stage of this hand.

My thought was "Yes this guy MUST be a donkey and now I have him!" so I go ALL IN as well. Well the cards flipped and he has 10h 8d!!! I think to myself I FINALLY get AA and some maniac calls my pre-flop raise with rags and my re-raise on the flop with only middle pair! WHY! WHY! WHY!

Why? Because he had the odds to make the call. Because he had position. Because his draw hand stands a better chance of cracking aces than a hand like AK or QQ ever would. Because you never properly defined your hand. Because you let him in cheap. Because you slow played a vulnerable hand in a multiway pot. Because your re-raise was nothing more than a pot sweetener.

With all due respect, I think you played this hand MUCH worse than the button did. And to top it all off, you called down all your chips in a WSOP qualifier with nothing more than a pair. Rather than point the finger at other players, take this hand and study it hard, and try to figure out how you gave it away.

[Lukie]

hit more sets, problem solved

[Wyldfoxx]

I know in terms of time I'm still a fish. I have ALOT to learn. I appreciate your words. Every truly good player says "skill will defeat luck in the long run."
But here's where my (obvious) impatience shows. I feel I could win alot of money if I take my time and think. Only, my bankroll supports, well... freerolls. I have a passion for the game I love to play. I just don't want to flush all my money down the tube just to "learn".
Not to mention my wife already gets pissed I play for FREE! How am I ever going to convince her I'm good enough to play for REAL money. The only answer I can give myself is... win some... even alittle. But every "experienced" player I talk to says the only way to win "free" games is to dodge bullets left and right. Aarrggghhh!

[givememyleg]

Not to mention my wife already gets pissed I play for FREE! How am I ever going to convince her I'm good enough to play for REAL money.

Kick her out.

[Wyldfoxx]

Rather than point the finger at other players, take this hand and study it hard, and try to figure out how you gave it away.

WOW! You disected that hand like a scientist searching for the cure for cancer!!!
I need to take notes of my hands and study my play! I got more leaks than the New York Times!!!!!!!!!!

[Wyldfoxx]

Kick her out.

Can't. Won't!
1. She's caring my first child. A son no less.
2. She's HOT!
3. I love her too much.

[Lukie]

oh snap

[Greedo017]

wow, sounds like you just picked the game up. you have a loooooong way to go.

settle down. play more. win money. buy your wife stuff with it. or, kick her out, if her taking care of the kid is a problem, let her have it.

[a500lbgorilla]

I can't for the life of me figure out WHY??? Why is it that all the crazy maniac newbie donkeys can make absolutely REDICULOUS plays and they "seem" to ALWAYS WIN!!!

until you get over this statement and realize that you profit from other peoples mistakes, you can't be helped.

[bigred]

Watch out fox, we have people here who won't stop if they see you running across the highway.

[bode]

someone might stop for the fur

[Irisheyes]

I can't for the life of me figure out WHY??? Why is it that all the crazy maniac newbie donkeys can make absolutely REDICULOUS plays and they "seem" to ALWAYS WIN!!!

until you get over this statement and realize that you profit from other peoples mistakes, you can't be helped.

This realisation will be one of the greatest of your poker career though. It's up there with realising what "long term" really means.

[Miffed22001]

long term?

is that beyond 10000 hands? :P

[Wyldfoxx]

I woke up this morning with a relization...
If I had a billboard for me today it would read:
"Welcome to poker. You won't always win. and... Only a fool calls someone else a fool."

[2mb]

At least you've signed up here, welcome new player

[flomo]

to FTR and your new poker career

good luck
flomo

oh yeah, check out all the stuff in the beginners circle
pro hemp bro

[Halv]

As people have said: read ALL the posts in the Beginners Digest. Then read them again tomorrow. Then, guess what, read them again the next day.

There are many big realisations to come. My big ones were that I SUCK at poker but that I earn money by playing against people who SUCK EVEN MORE.

Oh, and post lots and lots of hands..

Welcome to the forums!

[BowlinPinTim]

[quote="Wyldfoxx"]The latest bout I had AA in early-middle position (not the best but I figured in the situation it's ok) on the FIRST hand of the MTT. quote]

So true, I'd much prefer 74o in this situation, it's a much more solid starting hand I think.

[Chicago_Kid]

Somebody PLEASE tell me why WE are even playing poker, when it seems to be more and more about luck of the draw instead of skill and mathmatics. (which is what made me LOVE this game in the first place!) HELP!!!

if you think playing against newbies sucking out on you leads to more bad results than good results, you might not be that good yourself. There it is...harsh as it may sound.

I play where I can get a long term edge, which is against weaker players. Variance is part of that game.

[BowlinPinTim]

This is my first post so bare with me.
My poker name is Wyldfoxx. I play on FullTiltPoker.com and UltimateBet.net
My primary game is No Limit Texas Holdem' MTT.
But... I do play ring games and dabble in Omaha and Razz.

The reason I post today is to find advice and insight into my struggle with the game of poker. I recently qualified for Round 2 of Full Tilt Poker's WSOP seat giveaway TWO times back 2 back. In the last Round 1tourney I accomplished a second place finish using my A game. What blows my mind is that I only made it to the second blinds level in Round 2 both times. Now I admit that my nerves have made it hard to play my A game, and I'm willing to blame those failures on myslef. But since then all I want to do is take a SHOTGUN to my monitor! For the last 4 days IN A ROW. I have been busted out over and over and over by some maniac going all in with rags and cracking my monsters!!!

The latest bout I had AA in early-middle position (not the best but I figured in the situation it's ok) on the FIRST hand of the MTT. The UTG called the BB into the game so I raised 3 x the BB which was $90. I got 3 callers pre-flop; late-middle, button, and UTG. The flop comes 4c ks 10c. The button raised $150, the UTG folded, I raised it to $300, the LM folded. The Turn comes 8h and the button goes ALL IN. My thought was "Yes this guy MUST be a donkey and now I have him!" so I go ALL IN as well. Well the cards flipped and he has 10h 8d!!! I think to myself I FINALLY get AA and some maniac calls my pre-flop raise with rags and my re-raise on the flop with only middle pair! WHY! WHY! WHY!

I can't for the life of me figure out WHY??? Why is it that all the crazy maniac newbie donkeys can make absolutely REDICULOUS plays and they "seem" to ALWAYS WIN!!!

The only mistake I think I made was this... instead of only min raising post flop I should have raised it maybe to $600 or maybe $750. The only thing that REALLY angers me is the fact that he probably would have called ANYWAY!!!

Somebody PLEASE tell me why WE are even playing poker, when it seems to be more and more about luck of the draw instead of skill and mathmatics. (which is what made me LOVE this game in the first place!) HELP!!!

Dude, I love how you just CAPS LOCK random words throughout this entire post. I makes me laugh.

[Lukie]

I woke up this morning with a relization...
If I had a billboard for me today it would read:
"Welcome to poker. You won't always win. and... Only a fool calls someone else a fool."

I disagree.

[Nova442]

I play poker to make money.

If I were you I'd start at NL5. Ring games have much less variance than MTTs, and that may help you with self control.

[Lukie]

aahh??? I like 2 7 offsuit IT ROCKS! against AA!

i'm the only one that voted for this???

[Rockymv]

aahh??? I like 2 7 offsuit IT ROCKS! against AA!

i'm the only one that voted for this???

i'm surprised you're not the only one that voted period.

[JCMoney]

Kick her out.

It worked for me.

[Lukie]

aahh??? I like 2 7 offsuit IT ROCKS! against AA!

i'm the only one that voted for this???

i'm surprised you're not the only one that voted period.

lol

[spoonitnow]

long term?

is that beyond 10000 hands? :P

long term is like half an hour 4-tabling

[jackvance]

So true, I'd much prefer 74o in this situation, it's a much more solid starting hand I think.

Yeah, atleast you can let go of 74o easily. AA all you do is lose big!

[bigred]

Well I minraise AA and yet I still lose, what am I doing wrong?

[a500lbgorilla]

dont raise aces idiot

[bigred]

dont raise aces idiot

True, if you do you might not get any action.

[flomo]

FOLD

bigred, are you really bored or on a mission to up your post count.
i know you are always here but lately you have been posting like a rilla

[Chicago_Kid]

FOLD

bigred, are you really bored or on a mission to up your post count.
i know you are always here but lately you have been posting like a rilla

up my post count, too.

[spoonitnow]

sup fish?

[givememyleg]

FOLD

bigred, are you really bored or on a mission to up your post count.
i know you are always here but lately you have been posting like a rilla

up my post count, too.

worst bump evar?

[Lukie]

awesome bump, I love this thread.

Somebody tell me how to hit more sets, thanks.

[pantherhound]

dont raise aces idiot

True, if you do you might not get any action.

So true, I wuz like 'How do you expect to win any money with so few people in the hand????!!!!'

[biondino]

Why does no-one ever tell Lukie how to hit more sets?

[pantherhound]

Hope this helps Lukie, it worked for me

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-37389.htm

[bef99hwk]

You know, I have a comment regarding if you can't beat bad players how do you think you can beat good ones? To me, I think sometimes the better player can overthink the worse player. For instance, last night I had k-j...flop came k-j-low card...i bet 3/4 pot, he called....turn card came a flush card....i bet 3/4 pot, he called...river came 4th flush card...he bet out 3/4 pot and i had no heart so i had to fold to the straight and flush possibilities...he flipped over a-10, no flush cards no straight. Fish don't think about what they are doing...if you explain it to them, they say yeah makes sense but they call all the way with bottom pair and hit two, they don't care. They just care about their cards. So, that is my reasoning on why you can beat better players rather than bad ones. My point on beating fish is that you can get your money in while you are always ahead, but you have to rely on being lucky as hell that they don't draw you out, even if they need runner runner. I think playing better players its all skill and a decent luck, the ole' 90% skill 10% luck. With fish, it's like 50% skill but then 50% luck after you see how ahead you are.

[Rondavu]

Lukie, get more pocket pairs

You're Welcome

[pgil]

so not true. the reason you play against bad players is they will give you all of their money, usually with garbage. occasionally garbage will hit, but so what.

now if you play with good players, you will not only lose more when you are beaten, and win less when you are ahead, you will also be forced to lay down winning hands more, and you will not be as able to pull moves on them, your cbets will be picked off, and you will lose your shirt.

[pgil]

Lukie, get more pocket pairs

You're Welcome

and never ever fold a pp preflop. who cares if its an all in, this could be the time it hits. then youd feel foolish, wouldnt you.

[Rockymv]

if you explain it to them, they say yeah makes sense but they call all the way with bottom pair and hit two, they don't care.

please don't explain it to them...

[pantherhound]

please don't explain it to them...

QFT.

The worse they played it, the more your duty to say 'vnh'. If you're a big stack, it carries a lot of credibility and they'll keep doing it

[Lukie]

You know, I have a comment regarding if you can't beat bad players how do you think you can beat good ones? To me, I think sometimes the better player can overthink the worse player. For instance, last night I had k-j...flop came k-j-low card...i bet 3/4 pot, he called....turn card came a flush card....i bet 3/4 pot, he called...river came 4th flush card...he bet out 3/4 pot and i had no heart so i had to fold to the straight and flush possibilities...he flipped over a-10, no flush cards no straight. Fish don't think about what they are doing...if you explain it to them, they say yeah makes sense but they call all the way with bottom pair and hit two, they don't care. They just care about their cards. So, that is my reasoning on why you can beat better players rather than bad ones. My point on beating fish is that you can get your money in while you are always ahead, but you have to rely on being lucky as hell that they don't draw you out, even if they need runner runner. I think playing better players its all skill and a decent luck, the ole' 90% skill 10% luck. With fish, it's like 50% skill but then 50% luck after you see how ahead you are.

lol

thanks for the laugh

[jackvance]

Maybe it needs a little addendum:

"If you can't beat bad players, how can you expect to beat good players?"

+

".. meaning that if you can't adapt to people playing crap cards, calling and raising somewhat randomly and playing against the odds, ie if you don't have the wits to adjust your playstyle to beat these fish.. then how are you ever going to outsmart good, thinking players?"

[guiltyjoe]

Aren't they a source of income for good players?

[Rockymv]

Aren't they a source of income for good players?

Good question. Also, nice bump.