JJ...do I call this all-in ?

[thenonsequitur]

This is a 1000-player tournament, and there are just under 200 players. Level 8.

I have an above average chick stack, pretty solid amount. I just got moved to a new table. The first hand at this new table is below:

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t400/t800
(Ante: t25)
10 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t41147
UTG+1: t13605
UTG+2: t3143
MP1: t41630
MP2: t12932
Hero: t22273
CO: t16675
Button: t30703
SB: t10312
BB: t37058

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is MP3 with A T
5 folds, Hero raises to t2200, 3 folds, BB calls t1400 (pot was t3650).

Flop: 3 5 Q (t5050, 2 players)
BB is all-in t34833, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: t34833 returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: t5050



Mainly just trying to steal the blinds. BB (big stack) calls though and then puts me all in on the flop. Felt like a counter-steal, but still an easy fold on the flop, I think. I just posted this hand as preface for the next one:




I have JJ. One limper before me, so I raise a little more than I would if I were opening.

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t400/t800
(Ante: t25)
10 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t13580
UTG+1: t3118
UTG+2: t41605
MP1: t12907
Hero: t20048
MP3: t16650
CO: t30678
Button: t9887
SB: t39883
BB: t41122

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is MP2 with J J
2 folds, UTG+2 calls t800 (pot was t1450), MP1 folds, Hero raises to t2800, 3 folds, SB raises all-in t39458, 2 folds, Hero ???

Note that SB this hand is the same as BB last hand. The same person that just went all-in did so again.

Do I put all my chips in here? I am against someone that can take me out, and If I fold, I still have a pretty solid above-average chipstack. Then again, if I call and win I am in very good shape, so could be a very useful boost. But JJ is pretty vulnerable and the guy is repping QQ+. Then again he did just go all in the previous hand in what seemed to be a countersteal. But he could have AA and be thinking second level hoping I will call because he just went in last hand and would expect me to think he is trying to countersteal again. I don't have any reads other than the previous hand. Is this a worthwhile call?

[J_Tizzle23]

You can look at it from one perspective and say easy fold, but then again there are signs that say call... pretty tough decision, my first instinct would be fold here though.


Curious to find out the rest of the hand

[Spanners]

I have an above average chick stack, pretty solid amount.

i want a chick stack....

anyway i would fold, but im a baby! you dont need to get it all in when its likely domination or flipping

[TanO]

The thing is, just cause he pushed on your first example it doesn't really give you a read. All you know is he pushed "something", so unless he's pushing like once an orbit or has been called in this situation and you've seen him have AJo I can't really see why you'd need to call it. Maybe if you've seen him play AA or KK differently to this the you could take the coinflip on, but you don't need to do it at all.

[Sprayed]

Would pushing QQ+ be a good play by villain here? I don't think so. You want action with those hands. I see 77 - JJ, and AJ+ here. I seriously doubt that he's doing it with anything lower than 99 - JJ or AQ+. But, that would be my range. I call and cry when he flips over QQ.

[chardrian]

Call.

[thenonsequitur]

I call and cry when he flips over QQ.

This is exactly what I did. I called and then cried when he flipped over QQ.

I used up a good amount of my time thinking about it and almost folding first though. Board came all rags and his queens held up.

[chardrian]

Again this is another results oriented hand.

What range did you put your opp on?

[thenonsequitur]

Again this is another results oriented hand.

No, actually, I was planning on posting it regardless of the results. I really though long and hard about folding before calling. I decided to post this here before I had decided on my move.

Also, not sure what you mean by "again" and "another" -- this is my first hand history post in the MTT forum.

What range did you put your opp on?

That's the problem, and kind of the point of the post. Without much to go on, I'm trying to figure out a good range to put him on.

[J_Tizzle23]

This is exactly what I did. I called and then cried when he flipped over QQ.

lol..


I enjoy staying out of trouble in tournaments, reducing the amount of gambling I do to the bare minimum; The first thing people teach you about poker, get away if you raise and are re-raised... true this is a little vague and has a lot of loopholes, but it keeps you out of that trouble spot a lot of the time :P. It is also not uncommon to see this play with QQ, I see it a lot during my daily escapades and I make the same all-in play with QQ-AA probably 30% of the time, and out of that get action probably over 60% of the time. I find it's usually better when holding a mediocre hand to wait and pick a better spot when you have a lot more information. i.e., the community cards :P This is not saying the discussion you guys had about calling is incorrect, as I can see your exact point on why to call this and depending on certain reads, it may be a 100% to do so. I feel that opting to keep yourself away from a lot of "I need to catchup" situations is the key to consistently doing well in MTTs

[chardrian]

Again this is another results oriented hand.

No, actually, I was planning on posting it regardless of the results. I really though long and hard about folding before calling. I decided to post this here before I had decided on my move.

Also, not sure what you mean by "again" and "another" -- this is my first hand history post in the MTT forum.

What range did you put your opp on?

That's the problem, and kind of the point of the post. Without much to go on, I'm trying to figure out a good range to put him on.

By "again" and "another" I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to a post I had just made talking about the fact that most posts in these forums are hands that people lose and are kicking themselves for after the fact.

The real gist of this hand is simply putting your opp on a range.

You haven't given us tons of info but from what we have, we have a guy who knows you will lay down to aggression, but we also have a guy who is raising a raise.

Depending on the opp the ranges could vary from 22+, AJ+, QK, to a much tighter range of say TT+,AK.

A good way to figure these hands out though is to figure out what range your hand is approxiamtely 50/50 against. And then you decide if your opp's range is better or worse and go from there.

I.e. : JJ is basically 50/50 against a range of hands which includes 99 and above and AQ and AK.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 50.1836 % 49.22% 00.96% { JJ }
Hand 2: 49.8164 % 48.85% 00.96% { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }

If you think your opp's range has more hands than that, it is +EV to call. If his range is tighter than that (i.e. he would not push with AQ or 99) than it is -EV to call.

[thenonsequitur]

A good way to figure these hands out though is to figure out what range your hand is approxiamtely 50/50 against. And then you decide if your opp's range is better or worse and go from there.

I.e. : JJ is basically 50/50 against a range of hands which includes 99 and above and AQ and AK.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 50.1836 % 49.22% 00.96% { JJ }
Hand 2: 49.8164 % 48.85% 00.96% { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }

If you think your opp's range has more hands than that, it is +EV to call. If his range is tighter than that (i.e. he would not push with AQ or 99) than it is -EV to call.

I like this method a lot. Reminds of the "reference point" method from backgammon, and I hadn't considered a poker MTT analogue. When there is difficulty identifying a range X, it is easier to start with a known range Y and decide if X > Y or X < Y. While this latter fact isn't always helpful to know, it is a close enough to giving a good decision when you are being put all in in a pot much smaller than your stack. I'll be thinking about this next time. Thanks.

[Sprayed]

A good way to figure these hands out though is to figure out what range your hand is approxiamtely 50/50 against. And then you decide if your opp's range is better or worse and go from there.

I.e. : JJ is basically 50/50 against a range of hands which includes 99 and above and AQ and AK.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 50.1836 % 49.22% 00.96% { JJ }
Hand 2: 49.8164 % 48.85% 00.96% { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }

If you think your opp's range has more hands than that, it is +EV to call. If his range is tighter than that (i.e. he would not push with AQ or 99) than it is -EV to call.

I like this method a lot. Reminds of the "reference point" method from backgammon, and I hadn't considered a poker MTT analogue. When there is difficulty identifying a range X, it is easier to start with a known range Y and decide if X > Y or X < Y. While this latter fact isn't always helpful to know, it is a close enough to giving a good decision when you are being put all in in a pot much smaller than your stack. I'll be thinking about this next time. Thanks.

Ya know, most of the top pros were backgammon players before they started playing poker and they say a lot spills over from backgammon to poker. Gus is one of those guys. Don't know if it's true because I know nothing about backgammon.

[thenonsequitur]

Ya know, most of the top pros were backgammon players before they started playing poker and they say a lot spills over from backgammon to poker. Gus is one of those guys. Don't know if it's true because I know nothing about backgammon.

I've been playing backgammon since I was about 5 years old and by the time I was 20 I had expert-level status (rating of ~1950 on FIBS) and was actually making money playing on gamesgrid. I switched to poker because it seemed immensely more profitable (and it definitely has been...). While a lot of the stategy/math/game theory definitely spills over, it's less than one might imagine (and less than I hoped it would).

[chardrian]

I dont know backgammon.

I dont really know math that well either.

But I know pokerstove (and maybe a little bit of logic).