QQ with KKK flop.

[pokerroomace]

First hand of a $33 SnG.

I'm sitting in 5th position. Blinds are 10/20. Starting stacks are 1500.

I'm dealt QQ.
The player in 1st position calls (Player 1). The next 3 players fold. I raise to 80. It gets folded to the SB. The SB calls. The BB folds.

The flop comes KKK. The first 2 players check. The pot is 260 and I bet 140. SB calls and Player 1 folds.

The turn is J. SB checks. The pot is 540. I bet 350. SB calls.

The river is 7. SB checks. The pot is 1240. I bet 500. The SB pushes all-in. I call the remaining 430.

EDIT: result - opponent flips over K9o and takes the pot.

------------------------------------------------
This is my first online hand of poker in 5 weeks and before I went away I had just moved up to the $22 level. The $33 was nearly full so I decided to play.

I'll post the result of the hand later.

PS - I lost $110 today in SnGs. Not good at all. Some of it was due to poor/rusty play - but as I played more I was losing to some really annoying bad beats.

[MetsFan259]

I'm thinking you have to like your QQ. There is such a low possibility that he's actually beating you; meanwhile, the odds that he's bluffing or holds a lower PP are much greater. Take him for all he's worth.

[bruinblue]

youve got the third nuts, behind AA and Kx. AA is out of the question since you raised pf and i doubt a donk wouldnt make a move there.

i think youve got to go broke here; most likely hand is AJ in my opinion

however given your bad beat posture, im guessing he donked up AA or had somthing like KQ

[fjuanl]

there are no mistakes here. you are getting 4-1 odds to call his check raise on the river. many people will go to the felt here with smaller pocket pairs. you beat 22-JJ (10 hands). you lose to kx and AA. thats an insta-call given the odds your getting

[taipan168]

I agree with everybody else, instacall. You played it well IMO. The only hands you're worried about here are KT-KQ which made a loose preflop call and not AA (unless the guy is a total donk for not re-raising AA when OOP).

As others have said, plenty of players will go broke with a smaller pocket pair on that flop and sometimes even with A high.

[FlyingSaucy]

I'm going to say some unpopular and quite possibly unsound things here, but I'm being honest in describing how I might play it.

being an early game tightwad, and with good notes on this player telling me that he's a solid player, i would have checked behind on the river. Sure I might be passing up a little value on the river by checking behind, however there are a few advantages to checking behind.

1. Showing down sets the precedent to the rest of the players that you are a tightwad and you play legit hands straightforwardly. First impressions are lasting ones and you can really use that to your advantage.
2. Given the pre and post flop action it is not entirely out of the quesiton that he is holding the case king, although the river check makes me really really think he doesn't have it. However the checkraise makes me sick to my stomach. You don't want to put yourself in a situation that you are making a crying call for your stack early in a sng.

basically:
check behind and most of the time you'll be up to 2100 early. check behind and lose, you've got 940 left still to work with.
However, if you get it all in on the river then you either double or bust. Is doubling that much better than bumping up to 2100 in terms of ICM value?

that's all i've got. discuss.

[fjuanl]

that is an interesting idea saucy...now that i look at this hand more. the turn jack kills a lot of action from 22-TT, if not right away on the turn, they'll fold the river. so most of the time you'll be making money on the river are from Jx only.

lets say he posted the showdown and won the hand with qq. would you still agree to check behind the river? it could be a biased opinion because I'm about 100% sure this hand was posted because he ran into quads

[FlyingSaucy]

hahah, yes fjuanl I hear you. I really do think the post is here because he ran into the case K, but am not saying my post as being results oriented. Honestly, I'm not sure how to better explain myself, but in a lot of situations i would check that damn river behind. I hate big action early on. Hate it with a passion.

[FlyingSaucy]

For example. Here's a hand from early sng, just a few minutes ago.

PokerStars Game #6198336141: Tournament #31427674, $30+$3 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2006/09/06 - 23:57:07 (ET)
Table '31427674 1' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Dr Winkie (1480 in chips)
Seat 2: mjhqd (1620 in chips)
Seat 3: HulaMom (1460 in chips)
Seat 4: JayDee21 (1480 in chips)
Seat 5: fwljr3 (1480 in chips)
Seat 6: GotchAgain (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: dgrasse (1500 in chips)
Seat 8: FlyingSaucy (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: Fiveplex (1480 in chips)
JayDee21: posts small blind 10
fwljr3: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to FlyingSaucy [Ad As]
GotchAgain: folds
dgrasse: folds
FlyingSaucy: raises 40 to 60
Fiveplex: folds
Dr Winkie: calls 60
mjhqd: folds
HulaMom: folds
JayDee21: folds
fwljr3: calls 40
*** FLOP *** [4h 2c 5h]
fwljr3: checks
FlyingSaucy: bets 80
Dr Winkie: calls 80
fwljr3: folds
*** TURN *** [4h 2c 5h] [7c]
FlyingSaucy: bets 140
Dr Winkie: calls 140
*** RIVER *** [4h 2c 5h 7c] [Tc]
FlyingSaucy: checks
Dr Winkie: bets 300
FlyingSaucy: calls 300
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Dr Winkie: shows [Ah 8c] (high card Ace)
FlyingSaucy: shows [Ad As] (a pair of Aces)
FlyingSaucy collected 1230 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1230 | Rake 0
Board [4h 2c 5h 7c Tc]
Seat 1: Dr Winkie showed [Ah 8c] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 2: mjhqd folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: HulaMom (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: JayDee21 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: fwljr3 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: GotchAgain folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: dgrasse folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: FlyingSaucy showed [Ad As] and won (1230) with a pair of Aces
Seat 9: Fiveplex folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[swiggidy]

It looks fine to me. I would be happy putting all my chips in at any point.

PS - I lost $110 today in SnGs. Not good at all. Some of it was due to poor/rusty play - but as I played more I was losing to some really annoying bad beats.

Ummm, you lost $110 and you're playing $33? That's only 3 buy-ins. It sounds like you aren't comfortable with your stakes. It would definitely affect me if I lost $100, that's why I'm playing $10 and 25NL.

[taipan168]

Yes, reviewing the hand I think check behind on the turn is the best line. Opp has called hero's bets on the flop and turn, the pot is already 1240, maybe the lower risk option is to just check behind and show down the hand. As played though, after the C-R there's no doubt hero has to call.

I'm sounding like a follower here!

[FlyingSaucy]

As played though, after the C-R there's no doubt hero has to call.

I'm sounding like a follower here!

I agree as played the river call is there.
You have become my disciple of tightwaddiness. I'm still looking for laggy dissenters to teach me of their rippy ways.

[bruinblue]

i agree with saucy too. maybe im just weak/tight like taipan =).

as played insta call

personally id check behind because i know im closing the action with that check. OOP id prob still bet out as a half block/half value bet knowing that im gonna go broke either way if he has AA or the case king, but that ill probably get a call from AJ that made what appears to be the second nuts on the turn.

[baudib]

I think I would check the river here. It sure as hell smells like someone who flopped quads and doesn't know what to do. Note: If you flop quads and have a willing dance partner, reraise/push the turn and river.

I would still call though because plenty of donks think A-high is good here,

[pokerroomace]

The result of the hand is that I lost obviously. He flipped over K9o.

I think once it gets to the river I have to make a bet. He could so easily be holding a Jack, an Ace and I wouldn't even be surprised to see some other pockets being flipped over here. AA can't really worry you here. The Kx is the biggest worry, but is quite unlikely.

I think he made a mistake when he didn't raise on the river. You have to make a bet in that situation unless you're playing a higher level game where you have reads and you're quite sure that I'll fold my hand to a raise - but will definitely bet a check. I think he has to make the bet here.

What would you have done if he went allin on the river befoe I had acted? Would you have called the bet of 930 chips?

It looks fine to me. I would be happy putting all my chips in at any point.

PS - I lost $110 today in SnGs. Not good at all. Some of it was due to poor/rusty play - but as I played more I was losing to some really annoying bad beats.

Ummm, you lost $110 and you're playing $33? That's only 3 buy-ins. It sounds like you aren't comfortable with your stakes. It would definitely affect me if I lost $100, that's why I'm playing $10 and 25NL.

I don't normally play $33s. As I said I play $22 most of the time. I lost 1 $33 and 4 $22 last night. That's not good for me at all. My bankroll for poker is actually about £750 - $1500. It's now about £650. So I can definitely afford to play $33s. My online bankroll was about $500 when I played the SnG. So playing $30 did hurt a bit. And loosing $110 hurt quite a lot.

I think I should be playing $22s. But I think I might move down to $11s for a while because I'm a bit rusty.

[GatorJH]

I think I have to agree with Saucy on this one. I tend to play small ball early in a SNG and would be happy with the pot that is already out there on the river. Too tight? Maybe, but it is how I would most likely have played it.

[swiggidy]

I think I should be playing $22s. But I think I might move down to $11s for a while because I'm a bit rusty.

Just checking. I have the BR to play $22, mabe $33. Definitely 50NL. I'm not comfortable loosing the money (and don't think I"m good enough at those stakes) so I don't move up.

{EDIT: It's not that I don't think I"m good enough. I have not proven to myself that I am good enough to move up yet.}

[pokerroomace]

I think I should be playing $22s. But I think I might move down to $11s for a while because I'm a bit rusty.

Just checking. I have the BR to play $22, mabe $33. Definitely 50NL. I'm not comfortable loosing the money (and don't think I"m good enough at those stakes) so I don't move up.

{EDIT: It's not that I don't think I"m good enough. I have not proven to myself that I am good enough to move up yet.}

It seems like we're in the same boat. I'm in a very similar situation. I'm not considering moving up from $22 for a very long time.

[pokerroomace]

I think I have to agree with Saucy on this one. I tend to play small ball early in a SNG and would be happy with the pot that is already out there on the river. Too tight? Maybe, but it is how I would most likely have played it.

I don't like this ultra tight play, but maybe you're right. I'd like to hear some on this topic tho.

Today I made a play where I know you definitely would have been tighter on (and even I would have been, if I could control myself). I really messed up on this hand tho. I flopped a 7 hi flush. I bet the flop and turn. And on the river - I checked, opponent bet, I reraised the same amount (nearly allin), my opponent called. He had a Q hi flush.
My play on the river was just so, so, so poor. I actually do not know the reason I reraised. My hand just rushed for the reraise button. Sometimes I just DO NOT THINK!

[GatorJH]

I think I have to agree with Saucy on this one. I tend to play small ball early in a SNG and would be happy with the pot that is already out there on the river. Too tight? Maybe, but it is how I would most likely have played it.

I don't like this ultra tight play, but maybe you're right. I'd like to hear some on this topic tho.

Today I made a play where I know you definitely would have been tighter on (and even I would have been, if I could control myself). I really messed up on this hand tho. I flopped a 7 hi flush. I bet the flop and turn. And on the river - I checked, opponent bet, I reraised the same amount (nearly allin), my opponent called. He had a Q hi flush.
My play on the river was just so, so, so poor. I actually do not know the reason I reraised. My hand just rushed for the reraise button. Sometimes I just DO NOT THINK!

Here is a trickier one for you. How would you handle this raise on the flop? Before you blindly say, re-raise, push or call ask yourself a couple of questions.

1) Did he call your pre-flop raise because he thought you were stealing (you have not made this move yet, but it is still early)? If not, what range of hands might he call with (as opposed to raising) then call a raise with?

2) What hands might he have that would warrant a check/raise on the flop and do they meet the criteria of your range from earlier? What % of the time might you think someone at this level would check/raise with a made hand versus a total bluff or semi-made hand (such as 2nd pair, etc.)? If he has one of these hands how many outs do you have and what is your probability of winning this hand?

3) Are you willing to risk all of your chips with just a pair this early in the tourney? At the moment you have 1,195 chips left. If you call here you will be down to 945 chips and the pot will be at 1,300. Any meaningful bet will commit you to this pot.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB (t3215)
Hero (t1595)
UTG (t1380)
UTG+1 (t1665)
MP1 (t1335)
MP2 (t1325)
CO (t1530)
Button (t1455)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, A.
6 folds, SB completes, Hero raises to t150, SB calls t100.

Flop: (t300) 7, 9, J (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t250, SB raises to t500, Hero ???


Finally, sorry for the possible thread hijack if everyone starts analyzing this hand. I am simply posting it as another potential example of when to play small ball early in the tournament.

[swiggidy]

In the OP the hero doesn't get played back at, very different. Also, as stated earlier I don't play at these stakes.

What would I put villain on? 77+, AJ, TJ, 98, etc. You cannot put him on 86, T8, or QT. Two diamonds is very possible but a terrible play.

Of the pairs:
77, 99, JJ you are behind
88, TT, QQ, KK you are ahead. Combine this 4:3 advantage and the connected nature of the board I am more likely to not play small ball and push. Villain is likely to put you on a draw.

I have gotten stacked in this almost exact situation by 9J. I say good for him and start another.

[FlyingSaucy]

I have gotten stacked in this almost exact situation by 9J. I say good for him and start another.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-42643.htm
my advice - see #2.

[GatorJH]

I have gotten stacked in this almost exact situation by 9J. I say good for him and start another.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-42643.htm
my advice - see #2.

DING DING DING - My point EXACTLY. In a moment of "I've got A's damnit weakness I called, he flipped over J7, hit another 7 on the turn and I was done. Lesson learned, AGAIN!!