All-in or re-raise?

[jimmy44]

Here, after one raiser and one caller, I re-raised with pocket Js. Do you think it was enough? Should I have re-raised more or go all-in?

We are already ITM. I felt that with this hand I had to make a move and try to double up to reach the final table (there were about 90 players remainig).

-----Hand 49-----
Hero's M = 8.61
***** Hand History for Game 5227402316 *****
Condensed history provided by the Tournament Trimmer (v0.7.6) from FlopTurnRiver.com
NL Texas Hold'em Trny:29075825 Level:15 Blinds-Antes(4000/8000-200) - Friday, September 22, 20:40:55 ET 2006
Table Regular(842924) Table #5 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: Claus73 ( $110149 )
Seat 2: Hero ( $118820 )
Seat 6: peephole6 ( $122936 )
Seat 10: pauler10 ( $90991 )
Seat 4: DamAmster ( $104616 )
Seat 5: T3ds3n ( $66241 )
Seat 7: theacct ( $265926 )
Seat 3: eyesacnewton ( $13294 )
Seat 9: jsaint00 ( $67669 )
Blinds-Antes(4000/8000-200)
All Players post ante [200].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Js Jd ]
peephole6 calls [8000].
theacct folds.
jsaint00 raises [16000].
pauler10 folds.
Claus73 calls [16000].
Hero raises [50000].
eyesacnewton folds.
DamAmster folds.
T3ds3n is all-In [58041]
peephole6 folds.
jsaint00 is all-In [51469]
Claus73 folds.
Hero calls [17469].

[topsoyale]

I'm in two minds about this. Never play jj well in most circumstances myself.

I like the idea of raising to try and get a fold or establish where you are with the hand, but it's very likely that at least one is going all the way with the hand.

With a raiser and a caller of that raise, your jacks aren't likely to hold up against both their cards, and they have to be in ranges similar to yours (or slightly weaker, akos, in which case you're coinflipping). A big part of me tells me to fold there and wait for a better spot. Just sit back and watch one knock out the other.

Jacks are overrated.

[Sprayed]

You're not exactly desperate yet. With a min raise and then a push all in from a desperate fellow would tell me that I would be racing.

[scarface737]

i would fold u could very well be against qq and ak

[drmcboy]

with no reads, push all day.

the whole table is short stacked, JJ is the 4th best hand, it is time to play.

[thenonsequitur]

Any reads on the min-raiser? Does he normally min-raise? Some players only minraise with very strong hands. Others only minraise with speculative suited/connecting hands. Yet others only minraise with just weak hands. Others just minraise as their normal preflop raise.

Any reads on the flat-caller? Does he like to call a lot and is just doing what he normally does? Is he trying to entice you in because he has a good hand? Is he trying to see a moderately cheap flop because he has a marginal hand and wants odds?

Any of the above reads will help in this decision. BTW, if I do raise here, I'm pushing. I don't see the point of raising only 50k when you only have 17k left after that.

[chardrian]

with no reads, push all day.

the whole table is short stacked, JJ is the 4th best hand, it is time to play.

[jimmy44]

Any reads on the min-raiser? Does he normally min-raise? Some players only minraise with very strong hands. Others only minraise with speculative suited/connecting hands. Yet others only minraise with just weak hands. Others just minraise as their normal preflop raise.

Any reads on the flat-caller? Does he like to call a lot and is just doing what he normally does? Is he trying to entice you in because he has a good hand? Is he trying to see a moderately cheap flop because he has a marginal hand and wants odds?

Well, actually, aslmost everyone on the table seemed to minraise preflop with weaker strong hands (i.e. AJ/AT ...), so I was not worried about that, as I was almost sure I had the best hand pre-flop. Therefore, I've tried to re-raise an amount that would win the pot there without putting in my whole stack, maybe 60k would have been better?

Any of the above reads will help in this decision. BTW, if I do raise here, I'm pushing. I don't see the point of raising only 50k when you only have 17k left after that.

Actually, I had more then 67k (i.e. 118k), I called 17k the all-in of the other guys

[Cavelli2003]

it looks as tho you were in two minds yourself

you said you wanted to try to double up here and put in a raise to win the pot uncontested -

if you were trying to double up it would mean pushing your whole stack in - but if you thought they were going to call what did you think they would be calling with,

and if you wanted to steal the pot uncontested you would have had to push your stack in,

in short both situations equal push,

[jimmy44]

it looks as tho you were in two minds yourself

you said you wanted to try to double up here and put in a raise to win the pot uncontested -

Actually, initially when I was dealt pocket Js I said to myself: "Let's try and doubl up". However, after 1 guy called, 1 raised and another one called, I thought that I should try to win the pot here or going heads-up ...
I guess I was not clear enough on my intentions ...

if you were trying to double up it would mean pushing your whole stack in - but if you thought they were going to call what did you think they would be calling with,

and if you wanted to steal the pot uncontested you would have had to push your stack in,

in short both situations equal push,

Double up would mean putting my whole stack in before or after the flop. If someone came allong with me to the flop, I would just put the rest of my stack afterwards. Therefore, 50k seemed about right to either win the pot there or going heads-up ...

[jimmy44]

Anyway, I was unlucky, here's the result:
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9s, Kc, Qd ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2s ]
** Dealing River ** [ Qc ]
Hero shows [ Js, Jd ] two pairs, queens and jacks.
T3ds3n shows [ Kh, Qs ] a full house, Queens full of kings.
jsaint00 shows [ Ks, Tc ] two pairs, kings and queens.
jsaint00 wins 2856 chips from side pot #1 with two pairs, kings and queens.
T3ds3n wins 227923 chips from the main pot with a full house, Queens full of kings.

That's poker! I'll be the lucky one next time

[IowaSkinsFan]

you were like 40% to win... i mean it's not really bad luck there.

[jimmy44]

Hmm ... maybe I'm not seeing something right, but pokerstove gives me:

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 56.7113 % 56.57% 00.14% { JdJs }
Hand 2: 34.0908 % 33.18% 00.91% { KhQs }
Hand 3: 09.1979 % 08.29% 00.91% { KsTd }


---

So I should win this almost 6 times out of 10 ...
I agree it was not a 80%, but I was still favorite by a small margin ...

[Cavelli2003]

i think i might just ban pocket jacks - pesky things!!!

[thenonsequitur]

        	equity (%)  	win (%)	tie (%) 
Hand  1:	56.7113 %  	56.57% 	00.14%      { JdJs }
Hand  2:	34.0908 %  	33.18% 	00.91%      { KhQs }
Hand  3:	09.1979 %  	08.29% 	00.91%      { KsTd }

Yeah, I get the same numbers. Compare to the numbers for just JdJs vs KhQs:

        	equity (%)  	win (%)	tie (%) 
Hand  1:	56.4635 %  	56.26% 	00.21%      { JdJs }
Hand  2:	43.5365 %  	43.33% 	00.21%      { KhQs }

Interesting that your equity% is roughly the same against just KQ than against both KQ and KT. Adding in the KT only makes it only go down by a quarter of percent (playing around with suits, this number varies depending on who has what suits, but it still only deviates by a fraction of a percent). Of course, your actual equity in chips is higher because the pot is bigger.