JJ pf OOP

[bruinblue]

hate this hand with a passion OOP. complete and take flop or try and push ppl out even OOP? sry for no HH converter 6 tabling rt now

PokerStars Game #6430690078: Tournament #32641327, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2006/09/26 - 19:58:00 (ET)
Table '32641327 1' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: bobby b (1460 in chips)
Seat 2: shantanut (1480 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 3: maxpower7 (1440 in chips)
Seat 4: scooterb333 (1790 in chips)
Seat 5: fayetteflash (1710 in chips)
Seat 6: H.M. MURDOCK (1460 in chips)
Seat 7: Scorpion62 (1020 in chips)
Seat 8: goravenclaw1 (1180 in chips)
Seat 9: Blumpkins4me (1960 in chips)
goravenclaw1: posts small blind 10
Blumpkins4me: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to goravenclaw1 [Js Jc]
bobby b: calls 20
shantanut: folds
maxpower7: folds
bobby b said, "ya shes fine"
scooterb333 said, "hey, thats not necessary is it?"
scooterb333: calls 20
fayetteflash: calls 20
H.M. MURDOCK: folds
Scorpion62 said, "AK called Anna Kornakovia - looks good but never wins"
Scorpion62: folds
bobby b said, "ignore chat doode"
goravenclaw1: ?

[FlyingSaucy]

Early on, limp and try to hit. That's my line at least. Else don't fret with the check/fold, it's just 20 chips.

[Warpe]

Raise.

[Jimmy Mac]

Make it 100-120. Bet any flop if it's heads up. If it's still multiway and the flop sucks, check/fold.

[Sprayed]

Make it 100-120. Bet any flop if it's heads up. If it's still multiway and the flop sucks, check/fold.

I like this line.

[donkbee]

If this is a one table SnG, I limp or raise depending on my mood. I like Jimmy Mac's line too. I don't mind limping if I'm the SB and it's super early in the tourney like here.

If it's a multitable SnG, I raise it for sure.

[TLR]

I raise it to 5BB and take it from there

[Da GOAT]

Make it 100-120. Bet any flop if it's heads up. If it's still multiway and the flop sucks, check/fold.

I like this line.

I hate it!!! WIth 3 limpers already just raising them 80-100 sucks. make it 200 total if we are raising.

If you feel its 2 early then check is fine pf 2.

[donkbee]

I hate it!!! WIth 3 limpers already just raising them 80-100 sucks. make it 200 total if we are raising.

If you feel its 2 early then check is fine pf 2.

Raising 100 more is 5bb. Raising 180 is 9bb, that's just way too much. Usually 5bb will limit the field enough to play it reasonably after the flop and if not, then you can probably let it go. Making it 200 makes the pot way too big and if you make the pot huge, good luck controlling anything once the flop comes.

On occasion you'll get a lot of callers with a 5bb raise, but usually people are limping behind with stuff they're not willing to call with and will fold to that raise.

[LeFou]

I don't think the 9+bb raise is that bad here, court.

JJ is interesting in that Postflop is generally not expensive multiway (set or fold) or headup (Bet into weak opp or check-fold if big card comes).

I don't think "Limiting the field" is the point of a PFR with jacks -- if a flop occurs, you're extremely likely to back off the hand OOP. You'd like to end it PF and you need at least 8BB to have a shot at that.

[donkbee]

Early in a tournament I want to have a chance to win a decent pot with JJ, but I don't want to commit a huge amount of chips.

[LeFou]

Early in a tournament I want to have a chance to win a decent pot with JJ, but I don't want to commit a huge amount of chips.

Then you should limp and go for the set.

I don't oppose limping, but if you decide to raise I think a small raise actually invites trouble. With a small raise you're definitely going to see a flop, which doesn't hit jacks very often.

[donkbee]

If you raise, you give yourself a chance to win the pot in more ways than "hitting the flop". If you raise too much, you commit too many chips too early. That's why I like raising less better ... you get rid of some people, keep the pot a bit smaller (hopefully) so that you can make an okay c bet on a decent flop and have another chance at the pot. If you raise too much, you have to throw your hand away on a bad flop because you can't risk c betting without committing your stack.

[drmcboy]

limp.

I actually like the big raise better here too if you want to go that route. you are laying the implied odds making it 100 here, unless you're saying you only c-bet an under flop, which doesn't come often enough to justify the raise.

[LeFou]

keep the pot a bit smaller (hopefully) so that you can make an okay c bet on a decent flop and have another chance at the pot.

If a flop has a higher card I don't think trying to taking it down with a c-bet is feasible or smart.

In position I think I'd pot damn near any flop. But we're not in position.

I guess I wonder why you want to keep the pot small? Just 'cause it's early in the tourney?

When I want the pot small, it's usually 'cause I've got a speculative hand and would like to see several streets cheap if I can. JJ is the very opposite of this.

[FlyingSaucy]

JJ is speculative oop when you are almost certainly going to see a flop though.

[LeFou]

By raising big a flop becomes much less likely. Isn't that what I keep saying?

[Da GOAT]

Wow got a bit of discussion from my big bet post.


WHy so big you say? here;

1) - 3 limpers who have put in 20 each, raising only to 80-100 gives implied odds to LP limpers if first limper calls. at lower stakes i feel i will get 2 callers.

2) - OOP requires a bigger raise

3) c/b's on flop will be made in the dark against all opp's, if one overcard comes can you justify a c/b, not really. so on alot of flops i gotta shutdown, this could argue for a smaller pf raise but i think raising bigger pf will get you one opp to c/b aginst or take it down pf.

4) okay you seem to say 9xBB is too much. okay im cool with say making it 160 at least to 180. reason i want to raise to 200 is psychological to villian. its an extra 20 in chips but it sounds alot larger. why do you think shops advertise items for $19.99? its coz $20 sounds more expensive.

[bruinblue]

but then dont you need to make it 220 so the raise is 200+ to callers behind?

i think that with JJ OOP, comitting 1/7 of my stack this early can be troublesome - while the raise may be psychologically damaging to opponents looking to call, it also somewhat forces me to play the hand somewhat pot comitted. obviously, im not forced to play for stacks on a AKQ board, but i dont like the idea of tossing out 220 chips PF just to check fold on the flop

[LeFou]

Your def of pot-committed obviously differs from mine. 1/7 your stack? Yeh... you'll only have 50BB if you checkfold the (unlikely) flop.

We need to be able to put -- gasp -- 1/7 of our stack in with good hands from time to time.

[Sprayed]

Make it 100-120. Bet any flop if it's heads up. If it's still multiway and the flop sucks, check/fold.

I like this line.

I hate it!!! WIth 3 limpers already just raising them 80-100 sucks. make it 200 total if we are raising.

If you feel its 2 early then check is fine pf 2.

Ok, I will go as far as to say 140 or 160, but that's it for me. Oop with the fourth best starting hand and everyone is showing weakness I'm raising. Being oop constitutes a raise because you're oop. You gain control of the hand by raising. I want them to play so I'm not going to raise it to an amount that I know that they won't call but I don't want them to necessarily have the right price to call either.

In addition, I don't want to make it difficult for me to get away from the hand by investing too much. Later in the tourney, I don't give a shit because the blinds will be bigger and I may need to go all the way with it. Here it's early and you don't want to lose your ass on this hand but you do want to gain chips. I think J’s are more than just set hunting.

[Pay4myCad!!]

... i dont like the idea of tossing out 220 chips PF just to check fold on the flop

With almost 1/3 chips gone at first level, you'll be tossing chips at much worse hands than JJ, regardless of position, later on in the game. I say be aggressive.

A raise is def in order... In this specific situation- At least to 100-150.
There's more benifits to putting chips in the pot than not doing so. Limping will only force you to fold to a scare card later, so u could just save 10 and fold now... However, PF it looks like the best hand on the table so play it as a dominant hand.

Committing chips to the pot now will give you the information you need to play JJ. If you were in LP, what would be different about an A/K- hugger calling and catching? Just the fact that they have an option to raise you? Untill you see an overcard consider JJ the best hand and charge opponents accordingly.
If you narrow the field down to PP below JJ, Ax - Qx, the c-bet is still neccessary for finding out where you stand.
[ I'd bet what I'd be willing to give up post-flop, If you're heads up the under-value bet might be interpreted as hiding a monster, (you did open, after all), with it being early in the game villian may pass.
Just don't plan on making a move like that again if it works]

On the other hand, If you are forced to drop it - Don't sweat the chips. It's still early, plenty of time to recover 'em with decent hand selection.

- Please tell us how the hand did play out

[LeFou]

A raise is def in order...

Not def. Limp for set is fine; you guys who wasnt to "save chips" or avoid getting "committed": do this. It's easy

Limping will only force you to fold to a scare card later, so u could just save 10 and fold now

No I couldn't. Hopefully, no one could fold jacks getting 10 to 1. If you can, please come sit to my left.

I want them to play so I'm not going to raise it to an amount that I know that they won't call but I don't want them to necessarily have the right price to call either.

This is insightful. Everyone reread it. Small pp call 100-120 b/c it's good odds. 200 ain't. Take the odds away.

- Please tell us how the hand did play out

[bruinblue]

i raised to 120, they all folded