don't do what Donny Don't does

[FlyingSaucy]

These are initial lessons from my HH reviewing that I've taken time this week to do as part of my operation. It has been exhausting actually, and I've still got a long way to go. It's shocking how many questionable hands there are. Thanks to those who have helped in reviewing any HH's we've emailed back and forth. It's been a humbling experience, but extremely valuable at the same time. At this point I'm writing this more for my own good, to solidify these ideas and force me to document my leaks for future reference, although there could be some valuable things to make sure you are on top of as well in your own game.

Overall my preflop game is usually really good and tight, with some exceptions listed below. I'd almost describe my preflop game as weak/tight. I think it's my saving grace. It is what digs me out of the holes that I put myself in with my post flop play. It's what allows me to survive the early rounds while the donks battle it out with 77 vs KQ all in pre. In reviewing HH's, I am definitely tighter preflop than most of the other players in the games I was playing. That's not necessarily meaning that I'm a better preflop player, only tighter. This allows me to survive long spells of dead cards late into a game, and double up in the late game against players that haven't been noticing my tightness.

That said, I definitely have lapses of judgement preflop - for example 3x button stealing with garbage at too early of a level. The worst thing about it is not that I'm investing with garbage, but that any poor preflop decisions I make tend to put me into a bad spot post flop. For example, if my opponent puts in a 3x raise from late position, I put them on too narrow of a range. I think that they must be playing as tight preflop as me. That misguided assumption then spills over into my postflop play and gets me in trouble when I think I can push them off of their hand because I've made a pair of 8's and there's only one over.

Postflop is where I'm gushing, not leaking chips. I'll call 2/3 pot minraises post flop with margianal hands and mid-stacked thinking that they will get scared off by a check/call. That's a major donkey move I've got to correct. What's happening is I'm unsuccessfully trying to play their hand regardless of my cards. I've gotten so used to pure aggression winning pots that I've forgotten to remain careful when I'm in mid-stack range. Up to this point I have grossly underestimated the importance of having good post-flop skills in a SnG.



Preflop

1. Stop limping from the SB just because of the pot odds, particularly in late game or short stacked. The problem is that position is so important that it almost always outweighs any preflop pot odds, particularly if my hand shows little potential in a multi-way pot. For example, Ax offsuit against one or two limpers mid-game. Only limp with drawing hands, and only do it from LP early in a SnG with other limpers in AND passive players in the blinds.

2. Similarly, stop calling minraises from the BB unless it is a hand with some potential to hit. Don't call just because I'm laid semi-good pot odds, especially when shorter stacked, say M<20. Either reraise, or get out.

3. Do not open raise from EP with anything but prems early in the game, because I don't want to be oop post flop against LP loose callers that may or may not have hit the flop. I shouldn't need to hit a flop to be confident betting oop on the flop, in other words, only play prems from EP. If it's not premium, lay it down from EP early in a game. AJ? Lay it down. Low pockets? Lay it down. The only exception I can think of to this is if the entire table is demonstrating to be extremely weak/tight, in which case they might be worth limping.

4. Stop trying any steal attempts from before CO or when blinds are still 50 or lower.

5. No more late game EP limps. Reasons: 1. It gives crappy cards free flops in big pots. 2. It gives LP players a reason to steal, and I'm defenseless to stop it from happening particularly with a hand that is dominated by the raiser's repped range, for example AJ or KQ.



Postflop

1. Post flop my biggest problem lies in open betting or raising with losing hands on dangerous boards given preflop action. I am not taking my cards into consideration enough, and am not being flexible in my reads as the betting progresses. Too often, maybe once or twice a SnG, I put my opponent on a hand and convince myself I can push them off of it. Half of the time it works and I increase chips by 50% or so, and the other half it pretty much busts me. That doesn't sound like +EV in the long run. I want to seal up this busted water main.

Every hand I need to be estimating what the probability is of me being ahead at every street. If I am ahead, how much do I need to bet for value and to protect from drawing hands? If I am behind, do I have odds to call given villain's range? I need to be very very careful with trying to push villains off their hands, particularly big stack and/or donk villains. If there is any hint that it will not be easy to push them off their hand, I need to ease up on my postflop lagginess.

2. I need to eradicate any trace of postflop donk minbets or near-minbets (1/4 or 1/3 pot bets). How can a 1/4 pot bet on the flop protect or rep anything at all? There's little to no fold equity, and it encourages pots to grow while drawing hands draw. It is a pointless, chip leaking bet in 99% of cases.

3. Most of the time it's best to cbet strong aces if I raised preflop in position against one opponent and it is checked to me post. In most circumstances, do not check behind if my AQ missed the flop and it is checked to me, chances are I'm still ahead of that BB caller and so I should bet it accordingly. If I'm called however, I need to really put my reading glasses on, and most of the time slow down the turn and river and don't invest any more than necessary.

4. Don't underestimate the strength of a check-calling villain. Be careful with putting the pressure on unless there are obvious draws.

5. Don't call super over-the-top push raises just because it smells fishy. This only happened once that I did this, and it turns out I was "right" to make the call statistically, however it was taking a 60/40 chance fairly early on for my entire stack.

[ripjohngotti]

Poker has rules?

[Sprayed]

These are initial lessons from my HH reviewing that I've taken time this week to do as part of my operation. It has been exhausting actually, and I've still got a long way to go. It's shocking how many questionable hands there are. Thanks to those who have helped in reviewing any HH's we've emailed back and forth. It's been a humbling experience, but extremely valuable at the same time. At this point I'm writing this more for my own good, to solidify these ideas and force me to document my leaks for future reference, although there could be some valuable things to make sure you are on top of as well in your own game.

Overall my preflop game is usually really good and tight, with some exceptions listed below. I'd almost describe my preflop game as weak/tight. I think it's my saving grace. It is what digs me out of the holes that I put myself in with my post flop play. It's what allows me to survive the early rounds while the donks battle it out with 77 vs KQ all in pre. In reviewing HH's, I am definitely tighter preflop than most of the other players in the games I was playing. That's not necessarily meaning that I'm a better preflop player, only tighter. This allows me to survive long spells of dead cards late into a game, and double up in the late game against players that haven't been noticing my tightness.

That said, I definitely have lapses of judgement preflop - for example 3x button stealing with garbage at too early of a level. The worst thing about it is not that I'm investing with garbage, but that any poor preflop decisions I make tend to put me into a bad spot post flop. For example, if my opponent puts in a 3x raise from late position, I put them on too narrow of a range. I think that they must be playing as tight preflop as me. That misguided assumption then spills over into my postflop play and gets me in trouble when I think I can push them off of their hand because I've made a pair of 8's and there's only one over.

Postflop is where I'm gushing, not leaking chips. I'll call 2/3 pot minraises post flop with margianal hands and mid-stacked thinking that they will get scared off by a check/call. That's a major donkey move I've got to correct. What's happening is I'm unsuccessfully trying to play their hand regardless of my cards. I've gotten so used to pure aggression winning pots that I've forgotten to remain careful when I'm in mid-stack range. Up to this point I have grossly underestimated the importance of having good post-flop skills in a SnG.



Preflop

1. Stop limping from the SB just because of the pot odds, particularly in late game or short stacked. The problem is that position is so important that it almost always outweighs any preflop pot odds, particularly if my hand shows little potential in a multi-way pot. For example, Ax offsuit against one or two limpers mid-game. Only limp with drawing hands, and only do it from LP early in a SnG with other limpers in AND passive players in the blinds.

2. Similarly, stop calling minraises from the BB unless it is a hand with some potential to hit. Don't call just because I'm laid semi-good pot odds, especially when shorter stacked, say M<20. Either reraise, or get out.

3. Do not open raise from EP with anything but prems early in the game, because I don't want to be oop post flop against LP loose callers that may or may not have hit the flop. I shouldn't need to hit a flop to be confident betting oop on the flop, in other words, only play prems from EP. If it's not premium, lay it down from EP early in a game. AJ? Lay it down. Low pockets? Lay it down. The only exception I can think of to this is if the entire table is demonstrating to be extremely weak/tight, in which case they might be worth limping.

4. Stop trying any steal attempts from before CO or when blinds are still 50 or lower.

5. No more late game EP limps. Reasons: 1. It gives crappy cards free flops in big pots. 2. It gives LP players a reason to steal, and I'm defenseless to stop it from happening particularly with a hand that is dominated by the raiser's repped range, for example AJ or KQ.



Postflop

1. Post flop my biggest problem lies in open betting or raising with losing hands on dangerous boards given preflop action. I am not taking my cards into consideration enough, and am not being flexible in my reads as the betting progresses. Too often, maybe once or twice a SnG, I put my opponent on a hand and convince myself I can push them off of it. Half of the time it works and I increase chips by 50% or so, and the other half it pretty much busts me. That doesn't sound like +EV in the long run. I want to seal up this busted water main.

Every hand I need to be estimating what the probability is of me being ahead at every street. If I am ahead, how much do I need to bet for value and to protect from drawing hands? If I am behind, do I have odds to call given villain's range? I need to be very very careful with trying to push villains off their hands, particularly big stack and/or donk villains. If there is any hint that it will not be easy to push them off their hand, I need to ease up on my postflop lagginess.

2. I need to eradicate any trace of postflop donk minbets or near-minbets (1/4 or 1/3 pot bets). How can a 1/4 pot bet on the flop protect or rep anything at all? There's little to no fold equity, and it encourages pots to grow while drawing hands draw. It is a pointless, chip leaking bet in 99% of cases.

3. Most of the time it's best to cbet strong aces if I raised preflop in position against one opponent and it is checked to me post. In most circumstances, do not check behind if my AQ missed the flop and it is checked to me, chances are I'm still ahead of that BB caller and so I should bet it accordingly. If I'm called however, I need to really put my reading glasses on, and most of the time slow down the turn and river and don't invest any more than necessary.

4. Don't underestimate the strength of a check-calling villain. Be careful with putting the pressure on unless there are obvious draws.

5. Don't call super over-the-top push raises just because it smells fishy. This only happened once that I did this, and it turns out I was "right" to make the call statistically, however it was taking a 60/40 chance fairly early on for my entire stack.

Words to live by. Very nice.

[drmcboy]

pre flop rules 1&2 are OK given you struggle post flop, but they should not be hard and fast as you are giving up EV. I am OK folding Axo out of SB against limpers, but if you are sooted or connected and have a few limpers you should be playing once you become more comfortable.

3 is OK, but if folks are often only raising 3x early after a limp you should stick around with PPs

post flop looks fine.

[FlyingSaucy]

pre flop rules 1&2 are OK given you struggle post flop, but they should not be hard and fast as you are giving up EV. I am OK folding Axo out of SB against limpers, but if you are sooted or connected and have a few limpers you should be playing once you become more comfortable.

3 is OK, but if folks are often only raising 3x early after a limp you should stick around with PPs

post flop looks fine.

Yea definitely, this is not intended to be something I'm telling other people to not do - that post title might have been misleading. (Simpson's ref)
These are just my own personal leaks I think I should focus on. And I think you're right about passing up EV, provided I know how to play it post flop. I've got a lot of post-flop learning though, and I favor tightness preflop to compensate for my lack of postflop skills at this point. Others will probably not be fit to follow all of these.

[taipan168]

Good post FS, I think all of us would likely benefit from going through the same detailed review of past HHs that you have done. Thanks for sharing your thought processes with us.

[TLR]

Preflop

#1. Limping from the SB when you have odds can be profitable, however it does require good postflop skills. While it is not a bad policy to fold marginal hands here I think later on in your evolvement as a player you may want to revisit that point.
I totally agree that you can't automatically limp from SB - basically you look for 3 things
1. BB is passive - this is pretty much a must
2. Pot is multiway - this is preferred, although if it is folded to you with a passive BB raising the SB can be EV+
3. You want hands that are less likely to get you into trouble postflop - I rather limp T8 or J7 then A2 or K3.

#2. Agreed,

#3. Very good and important point - dont open raise from EP unless you are willing to call reraises.


#4. Stealing when blinds are <=50 is pretty much a waste of time, however once in a while you want to raise from MP hands that you are happy to pick up the blinds with but have some merit (KJ, A8 for example)


#5: Late game you should rarewly limp from any position, you should usually raise or fold


Saucy those are very good points, I will comment on the postflop ones later

[TLR]

Postflop - you made a lot of intersting points, but I think you pretty much ignored the fact that this is highly related to your preflop game.

By your post I think you can categorize yourself as semi-loose agressive postflop. However since you are weak-tight preflop and limp more then you should you find yourself in multiway pots or in heads up pots with opponents who saw the flop cheaply and can pretty much have anything.

It also seems like you overanalyze/give your opponents too much credit for thinking about your hand and your bets. If I remember correctly you play low buy in Sngs - play ABC poker - it works.

[Scarface]

You made some really excellent points there. I think a lot of the leaks that you are experiencing I am also dealing with in my own game.

As far as playing scs, I have recenetly been experimenting with playing them and I have found that for me, up until 150-300 blind levels it is better to just fold them in almost all circumstances. I will usually only call from the button, or maybe cutoff when there has been an ep raiser and one or two callers.

I find that in the 12+1s that I play there is just so much value in staying out of hands and letting the donks knock each other out. As Harrington says in HOH 1, every pot that you enter in NL you are putting your life at risk.

Once the blinds have reached a point to where stealing is worthwhile I will normailly raise with scs though.

In regards to postflop, I find that a minraise can be used effectively as a bluff once it gets to hu play. I minraise preflop with anything and then if they call minbet the flop - many people seem to think this is a monster and will just fold, if they call you just give up. I generally hate minraises but I like this play because you put very little at risk to win what is normally quite a decent pot once the blinds are big enough. However, it doesn't take opponents very long to catch on, I usually only do this once or twice before I revert back to my standard bet.

[Random_Hero]

Great post FS. I find my post flop play to be a bit reckless sometimes. I usually try to steal far to many pots later on when blinds are high with mid pair etc. I need to slow down post flop and think about the whole hand, (if im in front, opponents hand ranges etc).

Pre flop my game is similar to yours and i dont like to get involved to much unless I have prem hands. I hardly ever play a hand in the first 2 levels unless its a premium holding or the occasional suited connector in a multi way pot from LP for cheap.

il try to see a flop with a PP for as cheap as possible but if i dont hit trips im outta there if theres overcards etc.

[Rondavu]

You're supposed to let the strength of your postflop game compensate for marginal preflop decisions, not the other way around. Learn how to play after the flop man.

Here, borrow my set of BALLZEETOS. Free of charge.