Discussion thread: SnG Experiment North America Results

[FlyingSaucy]

Post any discussion related to the SnG experiment #1

[LeFou]

First of all: this thing is awesome.

Second: I don't think you should stop there. Did you get my note about making a wiki? It's not hard. We should try to make it easier to do more of these without having someone responsible for cutting-and-pasting for hours.

[fjuanl]

thank you saucy...i really think this is gonna help everyones game. hopefully we can get to see it on the pokerxfactor replayer

[FlyingSaucy]

Having some trouble getting the history posted properly. Sorry for the delays.

[fjuanl]

ouch my "reads" were way off. couldnt help but laughing after reading hand 105. i was pwned.

hand 97 - caeser imo you need to push here. even if you were utg i think its still a push

[JeffreyGB]

I'm very glad I didn't have any Ax hands the hand that Anon limped UTG to make a set of 8s

On hand 85, I think there's a bit of confusion (since the two comments state different M's). fim's M here is 1200/150 = 8. An M of 8, however, doesn't necessitate push/fold play. That's usually something that's standard for an M of 5 (or about 10xBB). With an M of 8, you're almost never getting called by anything you're ahead of here, at least in my book. I think you still have enough chips to make a standard bet here.

[donkbee]

I freaking LOVE this “experiment” and hope we can make it a regular thing. I kind of went overboard while reading through the HH and had a lot of stuff to say. If you played in this SnG, it’d be cool if you could read through my comments and perhaps answer some of the things I am interested in.


Hand 9: Was interesting. My thoughts to you, FS, are that I think a check/raise would have been better than a bet OOP if you were thinking about outplaying me at all. Hoping to check/call was pretty much out of the question because I would never have given you the right odds. Like I said in my commentary though, I think I should have reraised more. Even if you barely had odds to call though, I don't necesssarily think it's a good play in a SnG at this point because that's how you throw away a good chunk of your stack early. Stack size is so important in tourneys, and if you miss (which you usually will when you're drawing), you are forced to play with a short stack for a long time.

14: I really like the raise by JGB here. Deciding to play LAgg in a game like this is a good idea.

15: I would rather raise K3s than limp it, NH.

18: FS, I probably bet the flop. You would have bet the river if caesar had checked, right?

20: I disagree with limping TT here ... TT is a very strong hand even at a full table. I would have raised this without a second thought.

24: Big raise preflop, curious to know your thoughts on calling here, Gator.

28: Twice in the last few hands you've open limped 77, Gator. Your thoughts on the value of raising it up 4-handed, especially when you're on the button? I think it's worthwhile to play it stronger when it's so short-handed, even if it is early.

30: What caused you to raise the turn bet, Gator? He bet 3/4 of the pot, what made you think he was weak?

31: Surprised no one bet this river. Do either of you call the river if someone bets, Gator or fimanoid?

34: Why such a big raise here, Laeelin?

35: Moose, you raised KTo UTG a few hands ago, and in this hand you limped A9o on the button. Curious to know what your thinking was.

37: I like your analysis of your play, FS.

39: haha I am entertained by all the bad hands everyone got in this hand and how it was folded to the BB in a full STT at the 20 blind level

42: Nice fold, fimanoid.

43: KJ is a pretty nice hand when folded to in the SB. Too early to raise the BB here? I usually raise this because I don't feel like giving the BB a free look at the flop with any two.

48: FS, I like folding this better. Maybe if you had more chips.

56: I think I like check/raising better than leading out, fjunal, but it DOES depend on the player. I would be likely to raise your OOP bet if I'm the preflop raiser when the stacks are deep-ish because OOP bettors often fold to a raise here.

58: Interesting hand, it's really cool to read the thoughts of the people watching the play here. Feels like so much is going on at once.

63: ATs would have been a raise on the CO for me, especially because the table was fairly tight. What kind of hand are you looking to hit here by limping that, fimanoid?

65: lol ... ouch @ the AK fold. A lot of aces in hole cards here.

66: I like the raise to 200 much more than to 150. Frustrating not getting action with AA though.

67: Interesting how Moose limping with such a variety of hands brought about this hand.

72: Nice thinking fjuanl. I probably would have raised this, but I like your line better.

74: Hmmm another big ace UTG fold, interesting ...

78: Tough spot for FS here ...

97: FS, you say that you felt it was a big risk to take, but I think it’s a perfectly fine shove. I would be pushing a lot of hands a lot worse than Q9o here, I think.

98: You need to push this, FS. A couple hands later you raised A2o from MP, and I think raising K3s on the button is a much safer play.

101: caesar, I’m a “she”, not a “he”

105: Very nice hand, Laeelin.

112: Definitely push that, FS.

113: Do you push over if I raise on this button, Gator?

115: Does anyone push fjuanl’s A3o here? The table had been tight and the action was folded to him. He needs chips. I think I push this …

116: I don’t like the small raise here, Gator. It’s push or fold for me …


Dunno what happened to the hands here … I’ll wait for FS to post them and then comment if there’s anything interesting in them.


140: We ran it through and as I suspected, I should have pushed. If the blinds have calling ranges of 66+,ATs+,AJo+, then I should have been pushing hands 22+,A2+,K2+,Q2+,J2+,T2+,92+,82+,73o+,72s+,62+,52+, 43o,42s+,32s … which is 97% of all the hands. Mad at myself for not pushing, I need something like this to come naturally when I’m playing. Oh well, next time I know. At least I thought about it seriously and suspected I should have pushed, it’s a start.

[Fimanoid]

I'm very glad I didn't have any Ax hands the hand that Anon limped UTG to make a set of 8s

On hand 85, I think there's a bit of confusion (since the two comments state different M's). fim's M here is 1200/150 = 8. An M of 8, however, doesn't necessitate push/fold play. That's usually something that's standard for an M of 5 (or about 10xBB). With an M of 8, you're almost never getting called by anything you're ahead of here, at least in my book. I think you still have enough chips to make a standard bet here.

I count M by Harrington's rules, so yea, my M here is 1200/150 = 8. I think that in this particular game, where everybody is TAG, your statement is more correct then in a "regular" SNG or MTT. Here I'm probably only getting called by AK, maybe another AQ and by any decent pair (higher then 88, maybe??). Those are premium hands, and would most likely reraise me, if I make a standard bet. The thing is, that I'm not laying down AQ here anyway, and will reraise all-in right back. I prefer to push here, and put pressure on the opponents to make a decision whether their hand is really worth it. In a regular game, it's a standard push for me. I simply can't afford to raise it up, and c-bet on the flop out of position, without crippling my stack. Plus, with a hand like this, I need to see all five cards. And as far as only getting called by the hands that beat you - sure, sometimes I run into a monster, but I have been called by a huge range of hands on pushes like this. Starting from a lower Ace or lower Queen, which I dominate, and ending with complete garbage like J4o or whatever (with all the paint and pairs in between).

I hope this ramble makes sense.

[Fimanoid]

31: Surprised no one bet this river. Do either of you call the river if someone bets, Gator or fimanoid?

I fold to any bet. Too many hands beat me.

43: KJ is a pretty nice hand when folded to in the SB. Too early to raise the BB here? I usually raise this because I don't feel like giving the BB a free look at the flop with any two.

My only reason for not raising preflop is that the blinds are way too low. I'm not looking to start stealing now, only to get looked up after, when it really start to matter.

63: ATs would have been a raise on the CO for me, especially because the table was fairly tight. What kind of hand are you looking to hit here by limping that, fimanoid?

A variety of hands... I'm looking to see the flop cheaply and to get a good draw/made hand combination. Sometimes even just the Ace high flop is good. Otherwise I check/fold the flop.

Dunno what happened to the hands here … I’ll wait for FS to post them and then comment if there’s anything interesting in them.

Yep, some hands are missing here.
[/quote]

[FlyingSaucy]

First of all: this thing is awesome.

Second: I don't think you should stop there. Did you get my note about making a wiki? It's not hard. We should try to make it easier to do more of these without having someone responsible for cutting-and-pasting for hours.

Hey LeFou, I know what a wiki is but not sure how it would help us here. maybe we can pm about it.

I plan to comment on some hands soon, btw, if people didn't make note of them yet.

[Laeelin]

34: Why such a big raise here, Laeelin?

I'm used to playing against really bad players, so I have a "min" ammount that I will raise preflop. I never raise less than 120 preflop in a SnG/MTT...

[Laeelin]

Hand 121

It worked this time and my previous raises probably had something to do with his range being as wide as it was.
Had I pushed I am not sure he would have called

Gator has made a lot of steals, and has folded when pushed over before. While i'm not short in chips, the blinds are getting big. I suspect that A3 is above his range. I went into my time bank before pushing over his raise. I would have felt much better with A8+ here... I'm not sure this was a good push (ignoring results) Thoughts?

Laeelin = <><

[donkbee]

My conclusion is that it's -EV to play one of these bloody games.

LOL

[donkbee]

I struggle with these kinds of hands in the blinds, late in the game, when someone raises. Lately I have been letting them go but am not sure if it is +ev to push with them. Any advice on these types of situations would be appreciated

You need a read to push over with this. If you have FE, you feel like I've been raising to steal a lot, and if you believe I'll lay down a marginal hand, you can push. Otherwise you can't unless you have a good hand ...

Nothing cut and dry here, it's very read dependent.

[FlyingSaucy]

I freaking LOVE this “experiment” and hope we can make it a regular thing.

me too!

78: Tough spot for FS here ...

OMG i know, when Jeffrey sent me his HH this was the first thing I looked for. I really did sense that he was making a move, in my comment I thought maybe he was pushing me around with a couple of overs. IMO, this is easily one of the best examples of playing the player that was done all night. Congrats to JGB for owning me.

[donkbee]

IMO, this is easily one of the best examples of playing the player that was done all night. Congrats to JGB for owning me.

That's what was really great about this, there were a couple EXCELLENT players in this game. I've been reading JGB's stuff ever since I started playing poker, and getting a chance to play with him and read his thoughts was a great learning experience. We're all in different stages of learning poker, and getting a chance to learn the thoughts of players that are better than or different from you is invaluable.

Thanks FS for doing such a great job, it worked REALLY well and went much smoother than I thought. I was happy to see that everyone showed up for the game (well almost everyone, that's cool that you found a replacement for our no-show, FS) and that everyone sent their HHs to FS rather promptly. That's awesome! Hopefully our future FTR SnGs will go just as well because I really think it's a great idea.

[FlyingSaucy]

I know, JGB is out of my league for sure, but I plan to enter his league soon. I'm just glad he took the time for a $11 game. hehe

Also congrats to fimanoid, I think you made some stellar moves, particularly 3 handed.

Hand 45 was interesting to me too courtie, seeing as both you and JGB were thinking about "testing" the other.

[FlyingSaucy]

Thanks FS for doing such a great job, it worked REALLY well and went much smoother than I thought. I was happy to see that everyone showed up for the game (well almost everyone, that's cool that you found a replacement for our no-show, FS) and that everyone sent their HHs to FS rather promptly. That's awesome! Hopefully our future FTR SnGs will go just as well because I really think it's a great idea.

why ty for the appreciation. It was kind of time consuming but worth it. There are definitely things to improve too so I'm into investigating those ideas.

[GatorJH]

I freaking LOVE this “experiment” and hope we can make it a regular thing. I kind of went overboard while reading through the HH and had a lot of stuff to say. If you played in this SnG, it’d be cool if you could read through my comments and perhaps answer some of the things I am interested in.

I agree that this is absolutely AWESOME. One thing that I definitely learned is that I have a LOT to learn. I may do the same thing Courtie did and go through this in detail to ask my own questions, but for now will just answer hers regarding my hands.

14: I really like the raise by JGB here. Deciding to play LAgg in a game like this is a good idea.

I saw several comments regarding this same strategy and, in fact, decided myself that I would play a little more LAGGY than usual expecting this to be a tight table.

24: Big raise preflop, curious to know your thoughts on calling here, Gator.

As I mentioned, I came into this with the intent to play more of a LAGGY game, however I still should have respected his re-raise and let this one go. Not a good play on my part and I am very lucky that a K didn't hit on the flop.

28: Twice in the last few hands you've open limped 77, Gator. Your thoughts on the value of raising it up 4-handed, especially when you're on the button? I think it's worthwhile to play it stronger when it's so short-handed, even if it is early.

Actually, Laeelin had 7's this first time, not me. As for my limp, yes I would normally raise with this had but, at that point, my VPIP was over 60% and Total Aggression over 20 so I decided to slow it down a bit and play this one for set value.

30: What caused you to raise the turn bet, Gator? He bet 3/4 of the pot, what made you think he was weak?

I felt like he would have bet the flop if he had a 10 or a 9 in his hand so I was pretty sure he was either on a draw or had a weak hand. I had a gutshot str8 draw and two overs to the board and felt like it was good enough to semi bluff with.

31: Surprised no one bet this river. Do either of you call the river if someone bets, Gator or fimanoid?

I had just semi-bluffed the last hand, I am OOP to both of them, there is only 60 chips in the pot, and this board is WAY too scary for my low PP. I was content to check this one down and would have folded in a heartbeat to any bet.

58: Interesting hand, it's really cool to read the thoughts of the people watching the play here. Feels like so much is going on at once.

This indeed was a very interesting hand. When Anon min re-raised I really felt like he had either a mid pp or high suited connectors otherwise he would have raised first. I probably would have folded to a larger raise and definitely was willing to let this go when the flop missed.

72: Nice thinking fjuanl. I probably would have raised this, but I like your line better.

74: Hmmm another big ace UTG fold, interesting ...

Very Interesting indeed. I can definitely not see limping with these hands at a table like this, but I would also think that at a table full of TAGG's that a raise from UTG would get more respect. All in all though, at level III of the tourney I think their line is probably the best one.

78: Tough spot for FS here ...

I would love to get to Jeffrey's level of thinking. This was an awesome play on his part.

101: caesar, I’m a “she”, not a “he”

I laughed when I read this as well.

113: Do you push over if I raise on this button, Gator?

On this table probably not. If my 5 kicker was a 7 or better then probably, but not with the 5.

115: Does anyone push fjuanl’s A3o here? The table had been tight and the action was folded to him. He needs chips. I think I push this …

The problem that I see here is that a push from him looks like a button steal so the range of hands that he would get called with may be larger than normal. Also, yes he does need chips, but so do myself (1,345), Laeelin (1,790), Fim (1,805) and Saucy (690). I think he can wait for a better spot and/or hand to push with.

116: I don’t like the small raise here, Gator. It’s push or fold for me …

Agreed. This was the worst hand I played all night. I should have just folded it pre-flop.


As I mentioned I will take a closer look at all of the hands and will post any comments/questions I have on those.

Finally, a HUGE thank you to FS for all of the time and effort he put into this. I personally think it turned out incredibly awesome.

[caesar66]

ouch my "reads" were way off. couldnt help but laughing after reading hand 105. i was pwned.

hand 97 - caeser imo you need to push here. even if you were utg i think its still a push

A utg push with A-Q? I was debating it, but wasn't sure if it was the correct play or even +EV. I played way too cautiously, & tight though, & know after I didn't play well.

Though saucy is right, this thing is -EV

[fjuanl]

you had ATs with 875 at the 50/100 level on hand 97.

the thing that stands out for me in this experiment is how often table image and knowing your opponent come into play. i also thought i had a really good idea on how some of you guys played but after looking at all the hands, i was way off. it was really interesting to hear the thought processes on some hands because it was nothing of what i expected. even after 200+ hands recorded on Poker Tracker and consistant note taking, I still didn't have accurate knowledge on most peoples games.

after noticing how wrong i was about how people would act, i starting thinking about how predicible or non-prediciable my game is. maybe i think im changing gears or playing a different style when I'm actually NOT. i sort of develped a non-written system for what hands I play in what positions, and I might have gotten to strick in following it. this is a problem because when players know exactly how you act, you lose money. fortunetly I have the luxury of playing against new people all the time, so they don't know of my nit-tendencies. but its something id definetly have to work on when playing against the same players regularly

[FlyingSaucy]

36
isn't limping A3o asking for trouble?


37
fjuanl. did you slow down your betting on the turn to keep the pot size under control? I like your explanation of your play but am wondering specifically why 200 on the turn?


42
fimanoid, very nice read there with the minraised SB.

43
fimanoid, xray vision.

[FlyingSaucy]

after noticing how wrong i was about how people would act, i starting thinking about how predicible or non-prediciable my game is. maybe i think im changing gears or playing a different style when I'm actually NOT. i sort of develped a non-written system for what hands I play in what positions, and I might have gotten to strick in following it. this is a problem because when players know exactly how you act, you lose money. fortunetly I have the luxury of playing against new people all the time, so they don't know of my nit-tendencies. but its something id definetly have to work on when playing against the same players regularly

I think your internalized type of "formulaic" play works really well when there are at least 1 or 2 fish at the table but you make an interesting observation about the importance of knowing your opponents. that's why i'm going to try to focus on single tabling sngs and taking good notes, since I think to take your game to the next level you need the ability to make these quick, accurate judgement calls about your current villains. you need to remember tendencies and let it influence your "feel" for the players.

[GatorJH]

Some Additional Comments as I review the first half (93) of the hands

Hand 9 - This is a very nice battle between the two blinds and a situation where both players did a good job of reading each other's bets nicely.

With that said, I agree with Jeffrey that the call on the turn shouldn't have been made. I don't think you can even count implied odds in this as any card that shows up that would help your hand would be a scare card to Courtie. I think your line of check/call (smallish to mid bets only) is a better line than betting and calling the re-raise.

Hand 23 - Fimanoid, if you are only "pretty sure" that you have the best hand why bet the river? The pot is small and you can only beat a call by someone who thinks you are bluffing. I can see making this bet if you thought you needed to bet to win the hand, but in your case why not just check this down?

Hand 43 - Fimanoid, ,why not raise pre-flop here? Also, why not go with a check/call on the flop, then attack on the turn. I wouldn't be too afraid of the flush draw against just one opponent.

hand 55 - courtie, You have position on the original raiser and the blinds are still pretty low. At what point would you call a standard raise from the button with AQo?

Hand 71 - Anon, why not raise Courtie's bet on the turn? You have a ton of outs here so why not get some money in the pot and put a little pressure on here? Is that a bad line to take here?

[donkbee]

hand 55 - courtie, You have position on the original raiser and the blinds are still pretty low. At what point would you call a standard raise from the button with AQo?

I rarely call anything, and I'm sure it's a leak in some shape or form. That being said ...

I like to have control of the pot when I am in a hand and the pot is getting fairly big. I don't call with AQo for two reasons:
1) as I've already said, you're never sure where you stand and you are forced to test the raiser post flop with raises if you want to even "see" if your hand is good ... and
2) if I just call preflop, I am forced to lay my hand down post flop if I don't hit anything unless I have a read on my opponent.

If I call preflop, the number of times I hit and win the pot are less than the number of times I miss and have to fold. Included in the times I hit are times when the villian has hit something better and I lose my a lot of chips or my entire stack. Thinking about it this way, I figure that when the blinds are low and I have limited reads, I may as well just fold and save the chips rather than get myself in a situation where I'm not sure where I stand.

I only call preflop if I have a read that my opponent is fairly loose and will raise with something less than AQ very often. I also have to believe to some degree that I have a chance to take it away from him postflop because I want another chance to win the pot if i don't hit.

I'm more likely to reraise preflop than call, but I've also learned that I need to learn to call more often. I don't know, I just really despise AQ and avoid bad situations with it whenever possible.

Just my thoughts, I welcome any disagreements to what I just said from anyone because I doubt they're all correct thinking. If there is such thing as correct ...

[Anon.E.Moose]

Wow, this is awesome! Excellent idea Saucy, and thanks for doing all editing!

Once I get a little free time, I'll review the HH more closely, and will try to come up with some of my own questions to you guys, and also answer those about my hands.

[Fimanoid]

Hand 23 - Fimanoid, if you are only "pretty sure" that you have the best hand why bet the river? The pot is small and you can only beat a call by someone who thinks you are bluffing. I can see making this bet if you thought you needed to bet to win the hand, but in your case why not just check this down?

I guess you mean hand 33 - we are heads-up here with Anon_E_Moose, and are checking it through untill the river, when the board pairs. His checks on the flop and turn tell me that he didn't hit anything. The 4 of hearts on the river pairs the 4 that came on the turn. So he missed the flop, didn't hit the 4 on the turn, and the river is another 4, making me think that I have the best hand. I doubt that he is going to call there with Ace or King high, therefore I have the best hand and bet it out... If he has a small pair, and plays it the same way, he probably calls me, but he still might be afraid me making trips on the river. So I think it's definately +EV to bet out on the river like I did.

Hand 43 - Fimanoid, ,why not raise pre-flop here? Also, why not go with a check/call on the flop, then attack on the turn. I wouldn't be too afraid of the flush draw against just one opponent.

Courtie asked me about this hand as well. Too little money in the pot, it's early in the tourney, and we are heads up - I don't want to invest a lot with a marginal hand (and KJ, even suited is very marginal, especially this early). I would rather see the flop here cheaply, and go on from there.

[GatorJH]

I guess you mean hand 33 - we are heads-up here with Anon_E_Moose, and are checking it through untill the river, when the board pairs. His checks on the flop and turn tell me that he didn't hit anything. The 4 of hearts on the river pairs the 4 that came on the turn. So he missed the flop, didn't hit the 4 on the turn, and the river is another 4, making me think that I have the best hand. I doubt that he is going to call there with Ace or King high, therefore I have the best hand and bet it out... If he has a small pair, and plays it the same way, he probably calls me, but he still might be afraid me making trips on the river. So I think it's definately +EV to bet out on the river like I did.

I guess the real question is - What hands that you can beat would you expect him to call with? From my perspective, if you feel like you have the best hand (i.e. he doesn'thave an A, K or have paired the board) then why would he call any bet from you? Are you betting this because there is still a slight chance that he has an A, K, or smallish pair and would let either of these go against your bet? If so I am more comfortable with the bet, however I personally would just check this down unless I was pretty certain he had an A, K or small pair and would lay them down to the bet.

Courtie asked me about this hand as well. Too little money in the pot, it's early in the tourney, and we are heads up - I don't want to invest a lot with a marginal hand (and KJ, even suited is very marginal, especially this early). I would rather see the flop here cheaply, and go on from there.

What does a 90 chip bet accomplish that a 45-55 bet wouldn't? Keep in mind that this tourney included all solid players (I can see this overbet in a regolar SNG).

[FlyingSaucy]

I wonder if any outsiders have any comments on this. Apparently not, maybe if pokerxfactor gets it loaded then maybe they will. ??

[donkbee]

I am hoping that others will read the HH and benefit from it as much as we did. I wrote a post in the beginner's forum encouraging it ...

[taipan168]

I wonder if any outsiders have any comments on this. Apparently not, maybe if pokerxfactor gets it loaded then maybe they will. ??

I've been on holidays so I haven't had time to do more than a cursory scan of the HH but I'll do so over the next few days and definitely post some comments/observations. Fascinating stuff so far though - and I agree with Saucy that playing in this game is definitely not +EV (unless you also value the learning you gain from it in which case it might be).

[Fimanoid]

I guess the real question is - What hands that you can beat would you expect him to call with? From my perspective, if you feel like you have the best hand (i.e. he doesn'thave an A, K or have paired the board) then why would he call any bet from you? Are you betting this because there is still a slight chance that he has an A, K, or smallish pair and would let either of these go against your bet? If so I am more comfortable with the bet, however I personally would just check this down unless I was pretty certain he had an A, K or small pair and would lay them down to the bet.

I don't really expect a call here. The opponent seemed weak, and this bet was to take down the hand without a showdown. And I think that the chances of a naked Ace or a naked King folding are a lot bigger then you would think. But this is something that I definately wouldn't try when the blinds are bigger. Checking, and seeing Kx or Ax take the pot is a worse play in my eyes, then trying to win it outright without a showdown by betting out.

What does a 90 chip bet accomplish that a 45-55 bet wouldn't? Keep in mind that this tourney included all solid players (I can see this overbet in a regolar SNG).

The thing is, I didn't really adjust my game for this experiment. I knew I was going to be playing against solid players, but I didn't really want to change my playing style, because this is where I feel most comfortable. I played it exactly how I would play this hand in any SNG. Trying to take down the pot while I think I'm ahead. If I get rereaised here, now that's a completely different scenario, where I would most likely fold (depending on the size of the raise).

In my response to JeffreyGB's question about hand 85, you can also see that I played my hand there in a way that might not be _proper_ for a SNG full of TAG players, but I wasn't willing to change my style of play there either. I push that hand (AQ) at this stage of SNG - any SNG.

[Da GOAT]

im finding it hard to keep up with posts coz i only have access in work at the mo. my print HH off and review if i can minimise the pages.

Hand a glance over the whole thing. very tight play all round but 4-5 handed is very good.

[Random_Hero]

This is class... not had a chance to go through all the HH yet but so far theres already so much to take in from this experiment.

hopefully have a few comments and questions to put forward later.

[Random_Hero]

hand 78 and 83 both pots were taken down using fold equity. I have trouble working out when I have good FE etc and was wondering if anyone could explain how/when to use it!!

I know its the increase in expected value that comes from the possibility that my bet folds a better hand, but I done fully understand how to use it!!

[TLR]

Hand#6: FS - I think that even 5 handed raising with A weak is a mistake, since you are pretty much forced to fold to a reraise and being OOP hurts you
Hand#9: First intersting hand, FS I think you played it pretty weakly, not betting the flop and letting courtiebee take control of the hand. Part of the strength of taking the preflop initiative is
that you get respect on the flop. I dont know what CB (I will use this as shorthanded for Courtiebee if you dont mind) would have done if you C-Bet, but he has to at least consider an overpair
Your call on the flop was pretty bad I think - your only real live out are 3 J's and maybe 2 A's (the Ah is not a live out), if you checked the flop you are better of folding it.
Hand#14: Laggy play, both raising preflop OOP and betting a dangerous flop repping the A, nicely done
Hand#15: I would not raise K3 here
Hand#16: I am surprise JGB did not raise it
Hand#17: I think fjunal played it fine, as for FS - I think preflop was very good, I would not to overcommit preflop, on the flop I am tempted to just call and hope to extract more chips on the turn, but I cant fault the push with 2 spades on board
Hand#18: I think I raise PF if I was in FS's shoes. Folding the river is painful but correct FS, nice fold
Hand#20: 4 handed I think TT is worth a raise rather then taking it 3 handed
Hand#21: Wow, with those pocket cards I expected a lot more action.
Gator: raising 4 handed with KJ good, betting the flop good
Laleen: I am surprised there was no reraise preflop to see where you stand, I think it was a bit timid play for TT,I would also be tempted to call the flop bet and see what Gator does on turn
fimanoid: 4 handed I am probaly callign with AJ here, but I think folding is a valid play
Hand#23: Gator - I am curious about te turn check
Hand#25: Gator - I think calling QT OOP is a mistake, even 4 handed
Hand#26: Again I think 77 is worth a raise here, the SB is pretty likely to compelete given 5:1 pot odds, and I dont want to take 77 3 handed
Hand#28: I would raise 77 preflop 4 handed
Hand#37: Very intersting hand, If I was in FS shoes I would play it more agressively, especially with such a low flop, in this case caution saved you fomr early boot
Hand#40: Laleen - I owuld raise to about 150, you want action here
Hand#42: I dont like minraises at all, not even with AA, I raise it to 3BB and hope for action
Fiamanoid: nice fold, I am tempted to reraise here (probably due to the fact that I mostly play turbos)
Hand#55: CB - nice fold
Ceasar: I understand the merit of folding mid PP from EP and I do that a lot, but on such a tight table I limp or even raise them.
Hand#56: well palyed by both

Thats all I had time for today, rest will be covered tomorrow

[JeffreyGB]

Hand#16: I am surprise JGB did not raise it

As I said, I wanted to test fj's reaction to my limping and betting postflop. I like to be able to limp from time to time, so I figured I'd see if he was going to let me.

[GatorJH]

Hand#23: Gator - I am curious about te turn check

Was trying to show weakness to hopefully get more out of him by calling if he bet, then inducing a call on the river.

Hand#25: Gator - I think calling QT OOP is a mistake, even 4 handed

Agreed. I got a little carried away with my attempt at playing looser.

[TLR]

Hand#57: Fimanoid - this may be a bit picky by me, but I dont think limping SC here is EV+ on such a tight passive table, it is profitable in loose passive tables, here you will rarely get paid if you hit
Hand#58: Interseting hand
Anon: Limping UTG with JJ is intersting, you are lucky you got raised here, and as you pointed out minraise was a mistake
Gator: UTG limp from a good player in a full table is always a 'danger' sign for me, I would be inclined to check and see a flop for cheap with AQ, although a raise helped you to define where you stand and shake some limpers, I would have been curious to see your line if a Q or A hits the flop
Hand#62: CB: I understand the logic of calling the PFR. I think I would reraise the flop, maybe minraise it. The reason is that unless FS has a really strong hand there are too many cards that could fall on the turn that would shut FS down and decline him from betting the turn, so the flop is probably your best chance to capitalize some more on your nut flush.
As played I would probably check the turn, although I doubt FS would put any more money in this pot unless a A hits the river.
Hand#63: Fimanoid - I think AT from the CO is worth a raise
Hand#67: First curious thing about this hand is ceasar's fold given 1:9 pot odds with one person to act
JGB - I was rather surprised to read your thought on making a play on the turn on such a coordinated board, it might have worked, but I dont think it was worth risking your stack. I am also a bit surprised by your reraise on the flop with a raise before you and two people left to act besides that, wouldn't it be better to call and try to hit your str8 ?
Hand#74: Nice fold ceasar
Hand#78: Geffery - I was very impressed with this hand, I would have just laid it down given a raise from a tight short stack from EP but you read the situation perfectly.
FS - With your stack I dont think you can afford to raise-fold TT here, if you are not willing to play it for stacks you a better of limping I think
Hand#87: Well palyed by all
Hand#96: CB - I think raising low PP from UTG is asking for trouble
Hand#100: I personally hate raising A2 since it is dominated by any PP or Ax, and is flipping vs any other hand, I much rather push any two middle cards
Hand#109: Good push FS, with the blidns coming up it is a decent hand to push
Hand#112: FS - I think that with M=3 you have to push any hand thats folded to you
Hand#115: Fimanoid - I think your reasoning is correct, stealing from EP twice in a row with mediocare hands is asking for trouble
Hand#116: Fjunal - with your stack A8 is probably a hand I push here, it is probably the lowest Ax I push
Hand#119: Gator - with your stack I fold this, you can afford to wait for a hand when you open the pot, especially since CB was laying low for a while
Hand#121: Laleen - I fold this, again, two easily dominated, very few hands you are ahead of
Hand#123: CB - As you said, leading here was not a great move, but you could afford it
Fjunal - just unlucky I guess, I dont think you can fold it
Fimanoid - Slowplaying A's has its merit sometimes, but I dont think this is the spot for it, I prefer to raise and see what happens, especially since there were so few limps lately it looks suspicious

[GatorJH]

Hand#58: Interseting hand
Anon: Limping UTG with JJ is intersting, you are lucky you got raised here, and as you pointed out minraise was a mistake
Gator: UTG limp from a good player in a full table is always a 'danger' sign for me, I would be inclined to check and see a flop for cheap with AQ, although a raise helped you to define where you stand and shake some limpers, I would have been curious to see your line if a Q or A hits the flop

I agree that the limp from UTG is suspicious, but I did not want to play my hand against 4 opponents. When he called my raise I put him on a range of - 88+,ATs+,KQs,AKo.

With his minraise I was pretty certain he didn't have A's or K's so if an A or Q hit the flop I feel like I am ahead here more often than not and probably would have open pushed.

Hand#119: Gator - with your stack I fold this, you can afford to wait for a hand when you open the pot, especially since CB was laying low for a while

That is what I was thinking regarding stack size and first in vigorish. Thanks for confirming that a fold was the right move here

[Random_Hero]

hand 78 and 83 both pots were taken down using fold equity. I have trouble working out when I have good FE etc and was wondering if anyone could explain how/when to use it!!

I know its the increase in expected value that comes from the possibility that my bet folds a better hand, but I done fully understand how to use it!!

Just been on the SNGPT tutorials and this has made this quite clear now...

[GatorJH]

more thoughts on the game

Hand 100 - I don't think I push here. You still have a few hands before the blinds hit and your 2 is practically worthless if you get called. You also have the other shortstack in the BB who's calling range could be fairly wide.

Hand 105 - I am not sure I would have had the guts to make that move from EP with 97o.

Hand 118 -

My conclusion is that it's -EV to play one of these bloody games. Bunch of frickin lean & mean sharks.

LMAO at this one. That is the best synopsis of this game yet. However, I would do it again in a heartbeat!!!!!

Hand 123 - Reading everyone's thought process on this hand is +ev. I would have still raised pre-flop with AA as that looks more like a steal and less suspicious than limping this late in the game.

Hand 135 - Man that is a tough fold Courtie. In a 4 handed game that is REAAAL close to pushing material for me, but with an M of 6 would probably lay this down as well.

Hand 139 - With the call being slightly over 1/10 of my chip stack I felt like I could gamble here. Am I donking off chips by that thinking?

Hand 145 - In retrospect I hate the way I played this hand post-flop. Any suggestions?

Hand 159 - That hand still pisses me off and shows me that I have a LOT to learn.

Hand 165 - PP's are huge heads up. I would re-raise here. If the PP was higher than 10's I can see possibly slowing down but with your low PP you want to take it down now if you can.

Hand 166 - Great example of first in vigorish and "playing the player"

Hand 169 - I don't like the push here. I think a standard raise accomplishes the same thing.

Hand 170 - Anon gets to show that he weakly played an A heads up. That could come in handy later.

Hand 178 - Fim, I think you HAVE to bet that flop after Anon checks. Most of the time the turn is only going to bring another scare card for you.

Hand 184 - IMHO calling here with Pocket 3's is a mistake. Too late in the game to play for sets and every card but a 2 is a scare card for you.

Overall analysis - There was some AWESOME poker played in this game with very few major mistakes being made. I think this was WELL worth the time and effort to put together (BTW, thanks again Saucy for doing most of the work).

[FlyingSaucy]

Hand#78: Geffery - I was very impressed with this hand, I would have just laid it down given a raise from a tight short stack from EP but you read the situation perfectly.
FS - With your stack I dont think you can afford to raise-fold TT here, if you are not willing to play it for stacks you a better of limping I think

I don't know, I felt that dropping 150 in this case is not going to kill me. Blinds at 25/50, my stack is still 815 if I fold. I see your point and in fact I did consider limping. I think in retrospect it's easy to say that I should have limped, but it was a very tough table to limp with anything at all. My goal was to demonstrate strength and set myself up for an oop cbet if I get a caller and the flop missed. Limping this invites any of the many savvy late position players to take advantage with overcards and see a cheap flop in a hand that I should be the one taking control of. I thought about this and decided to raise it up. Most other standard sng tables I might try a limp here.

[TLR]

Hand#78: Geffery - I was very impressed with this hand, I would have just laid it down given a raise from a tight short stack from EP but you read the situation perfectly.
FS - With your stack I dont think you can afford to raise-fold TT here, if you are not willing to play it for stacks you a better of limping I think

I don't know, I felt that dropping 150 in this case is not going to kill me. Blinds at 25/50, my stack is still 815 if I fold. I see your point and in fact I did consider limping. I think in retrospect it's easy to say that I should have limped, but it was a very tough table to limp with anything at all. My goal was to demonstrate strength and set myself up for an oop cbet if I get a caller and the flop missed. Limping this invites any of the many savvy late position players to take advantage with overcards and see a cheap flop in a hand that I should be the one taking control of. I thought about this and decided to raise it up. Most other standard sng tables I might try a limp here.

I dont mind the raise if you were willing to call a push, my point is that with your stack size compared to the blind and to the rest of the table you have to pick a hand and play it. TT is a good hand but your position sucks.
I would play it for stacks if I were you, but if you are not willing to then I think it is a limp/fold

[donkbee]

Hand#62: CB: I understand the logic of calling the PFR. I think I would reraise the flop, maybe minraise it. The reason is that unless FS has a really strong hand there are too many cards that could fall on the turn that would shut FS down and decline him from betting the turn, so the flop is probably your best chance to capitalize some more on your nut flush.
As played I would probably check the turn, although I doubt FS would put any more money in this pot unless a A hits the river.

Good points, thanks muchly.

Hand#96: CB - I think raising low PP from UTG is asking for trouble

It was a tight table that would have respected an EP raise, so I had a good shot at the blinds. Also, I am confident in my ability to lay it down if I am played back at.

Thanks for your feedback.

[donkbee]

Hand 139 - With the call being slightly over 1/10 of my chip stack I felt like I could gamble here. Am I donking off chips by that thinking?

I like the call. I might have bet the flop.

Hand 145 - In retrospect I hate the way I played this hand post-flop. Any suggestions?

I would have bet the flop. If called or raised, I am done with the hand. Although the A on the turn would have made it harder for me, I think.

[JeffreyGB]

Hand#67: First curious thing about this hand is ceasar's fold given 1:9 pot odds with one person to act
JGB - I was rather surprised to read your thought on making a play on the turn on such a coordinated board, it might have worked, but I dont think it was worth risking your stack. I am also a bit surprised by your reraise on the flop with a raise before you and two people left to act besides that, wouldn't it be better to call and try to hit your str8 ?

In retrospect, yes, I think it would have been better to just look for the straight. I saw what I figured was a lot of dead money and wanted to take it down. I was willing to give up on the hand if either of the others had fought back (but I doubted they would). I pretty much just thought Anon was full of crap (which turned out to be completely wrong...).

[JeffreyGB]

Hand#78: Geffery - I was very impressed with this hand, I would have just laid it down given a raise from a tight short stack from EP but you read the situation perfectly.
FS - With your stack I dont think you can afford to raise-fold TT here, if you are not willing to play it for stacks you a better of limping I think

I don't know, I felt that dropping 150 in this case is not going to kill me. Blinds at 25/50, my stack is still 815 if I fold. I see your point and in fact I did consider limping. I think in retrospect it's easy to say that I should have limped, but it was a very tough table to limp with anything at all. My goal was to demonstrate strength and set myself up for an oop cbet if I get a caller and the flop missed. Limping this invites any of the many savvy late position players to take advantage with overcards and see a cheap flop in a hand that I should be the one taking control of. I thought about this and decided to raise it up. Most other standard sng tables I might try a limp here.

I dont mind the raise if you were willing to call a push, my point is that with your stack size compared to the blind and to the rest of the table you have to pick a hand and play it. TT is a good hand but your position sucks.
I would play it for stacks if I were you, but if you are not willing to then I think it is a limp/fold

Given the table and what that he knows we're all solid players, what range of hands do you think he can reasonably expect to see reraising here? If I wasn't relying on his knowledge of reraising ranges here, I'd argue that JJ+/AQ+ is the absolute minimum range he could expect any of us to reraise him - a range that he is a huge dog against (really I almost lean toward a QQ/AK range). Much better to fold and keep going with an M of 11 than to push as a 3.5-1 dog.

[GatorJH]

Hand 139 - With the call being slightly over 1/10 of my chip stack I felt like I could gamble here. Am I donking off chips by that thinking?

I like the call. I might have bet the flop.

The ONLY reason that I didn't be the flop is that there are three clubs there, wich increases the likelyhood that I get called with the 10 or higher of clubs.

Hand 145 - In retrospect I hate the way I played this hand post-flop. Any suggestions?

I would have bet the flop. If called or raised, I am done with the hand. Although the A on the turn would have made it harder for me, I think.

Yea, the A hitting on the turn actually hurt me as it decreased the odds that Fim had one. I think your line of betting the flop is better as it would have been easier to fold to a raise there.

[TLR]

GJB wrote:

TLR wrote:
FlyingSaucy wrote:
TLR wrote:
Hand#78: Geffery - I was very impressed with this hand, I would have just laid it down given a raise from a tight short stack from EP but you read the situation perfectly.
FS - With your stack I dont think you can afford to raise-fold TT here, if you are not willing to play it for stacks you a better of limping I think


I don't know, I felt that dropping 150 in this case is not going to kill me. Blinds at 25/50, my stack is still 815 if I fold. I see your point and in fact I did consider limping. I think in retrospect it's easy to say that I should have limped, but it was a very tough table to limp with anything at all. My goal was to demonstrate strength and set myself up for an oop cbet if I get a caller and the flop missed. Limping this invites any of the many savvy late position players to take advantage with overcards and see a cheap flop in a hand that I should be the one taking control of. I thought about this and decided to raise it up. Most other standard sng tables I might try a limp here.
I dont mind the raise if you were willing to call a push, my point is that with your stack size compared to the blind and to the rest of the table you have to pick a hand and play it. TT is a good hand but your position sucks.
I would play it for stacks if I were you, but if you are not willing to then I think it is a limp/fold


Given the table and what that he knows we're all solid players, what range of hands do you think he can reasonably expect to see reraising here? If I wasn't relying on his knowledge of reraising ranges here, I'd argue that JJ+/AQ+ is the absolute minimum range he could expect any of us to reraise him - a range that he is a huge dog against (really I almost lean toward a QQ/AK range). Much better to fold and keep going with an M of 11 than to push as a 3.5-1 dog.

Lets go with the tighter range QQ/AK and run the numbers
You also havwe to take into account that there is a chance that someone is running a play here - I would say there is 15% someone is running a play and if this is the case then TT is 70% favorite

So the numbers are as follows
(0.15)(0.7) = 0.105
(0.85)(16/34)(0.55) = 0.22
(0.85)(18/34)(.2) = 0.09
So FS has 41.5% chance of winning the hand

Lets assume you call if he pushes
he has to invest 765 to win a pot of 1905
765/1905 = 40.1%.

So given my assumptions it is slightly EV+ (I laid down the assumptions before running the numbers).

However even if it is EV- I think that with his stack size he should have just picked the hand he is going to the felt with, maybe he should have pushed preflop in this case[/quote]

[FlyingSaucy]

Thanks for running the numbers TLR. I think your 15% assumption about someone making a play at me is probably good.

So what it looks like is that in terms of expected chip value, the play is virtual dead-even. However it's taking a 0 EV chip play for my tournament life, when I could just continue on surviving if I fold, with M = 11.

Also, you're assuming that if I push over his reraise, that JGB will call. He probably would given the pot odds, but just wanted to point that out assumption as well.

BTW, I don't mean to be one of those players that defends a bad play. It's just that I don't think it's necessarily true that I need to decide if I'm going to the felt with this hand. I've got plenty of chips to use to extract information, which is what I'm doing with an UTG raise as opposed to a limp/fold. I can be a lot more confident that my fold is good if my raise is reraised than if my limp is raised. My philosophy comes down to the fact that I think I still have chips to play with post flop.

[TLR]

Thanks for running the numbers TLR. I think your 15% assumption about someone making a play at me is probably good.

So what it looks like is that in terms of expected chip value, the play is virtual dead-even. However it's taking a 0 EV chip play for my tournament life, when I could just continue on surviving if I fold, with M = 11.

Also, you're assuming that if I push over his reraise, that JGB will call. He probably would given the pot odds, but just wanted to point that out assumption as well.

BTW, I don't mean to be one of those players that defends a bad play. It's just that I don't think it's necessarily true that I need to decide if I'm going to the felt with this hand. I've got plenty of chips to use to extract information, which is what I'm doing with an UTG raise as opposed to a limp/fold. I can be a lot more confident that my fold is good if my raise is reraised than if my limp is raised. My philosophy comes down to the fact that I think I still have chips to play with post flop.

We look at the situation a bit differently.

Your M is about 10 after the fold (765 chips SB+BB=75), and you are going to post blinds in the next 2 hands and then blinds go up in 2 more hands or so, so if you dont get any chips in the next 4 hands you will have a stack of 690 and M<5.

In most tables we play in it is easier to get back from short stack in this stage because you will get paid, but this is a very tough table, and doubling up is complecated.

All and all I think that I would take the EV natural move here to double up, and taking the risk of busting out.
Since it is EV natural you can argue both ways, this is the way I would play it, but I can see the reasoning for folding.

BTW if you believe you have any fold equity vs JGB here then it is another reason to come over the top