pwned in a 22$ 2 table

[jdubs]

Am I just overvaluing my AA here? Honestly, i see this move with stuff like JA, JK, JQ , J9 , etc so often in these things, I didnt even think too long before calling. Pretty early on here, not much of a read. Yeah, the CR is consistent with a set, or 2p.. But also TP.. Guess I should have had more respect for my opp's bet.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG (t1170)
MP1 (t2460)
MP2 (t1930)
CO (t645)
Hero (t1725)
SB (t2305)
BB (t3175)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, A.
1 fold, MP1 calls t50, 1 fold, CO calls t50, Hero raises to t200, 2 folds, MP1 calls t150, CO calls t150.

Flop: (t675) J, 4, T (3 players)
MP1 checks, CO checks, Hero bets t250, MP1 raises to t800, CO folds, Hero raises to t1525, MP1 calls t725.

Turn: (t3725) 9 (2 players)

River: (t3725) 6 (2 players)

Final Pot: t3725

Results in white below:
MP1 has Jc Tc (two pair, jacks and tens).
Hero has Ah Ad (one pair, aces).
Outcome: MP1 wins t3725.

[drmcboy]

don't fold.

Do make a real bet on the flop.

[jdubs]

I guess I saw the flop as relatively harmless? (little did I know..lol) So hence the smaller bet? yeah I have to stop even thinking about slow playing an overpair- very bad idea, I know. Your'e right , a 1/2 to 2/3 pot bet is better here- then when he raises it.. you're saying don't fold?

[taipan168]

250 to go preflop. Try to clear out as much of the crap preflop as you can.

As played, I like 2/3-3/4 pot on the flop and I push over any raise (and call any push).

[bode]

put a real bet out on the flop and get it all in if he reraises still. if you hadnt posted the results, i would have put him on AJ/KJ/QJ even trying to play back at your weak bet.

[FlyingSaucy]

Shame on MP1 for being a preflop moron, I'd play it the same in a typical $22 18. Long run that move gets you money.

[jdubs]

Shame on MP1 for being a preflop moron, I'd play it the same in a typical $22 18. Long run that move gets you money.

but he was sooooted.......

[jdubs]

thanks guys, I guess you're right mostly what someone turns over here is JA, JK etc. Maybe being a little hard on myself, because at the moment he showed, I felt like a moron. But I feel a little less of a moron now

[Isop]

I don't know about MP1 being that bad a player here... it might be a leak of mine, but if I am putting the pf raiser on AK, AQ or a mid PP, I will often see a flop with JT, if I'm getting reasonable odds. Had it been 250 or 300 PF I might have let it go, but my stack can handle the extra 150 or 200 at this point, and it's easy to get away from when the flop misses.

I seem to remember seeing JT is a flip with AK and a favourite against a smaller PP... unfortunately I don't have pokerstove available to the moment to doublecheck.

Isop

[FlyingSaucy]

UTG+1, 7 handed - JTo is a clear fold. If you are going to play it, raise it like a good lagg would raise it, don't limp/call a 4x out of position. That's fish city. That's like McFish sandwich. That's a Scandinavian fish boil.

[johnny_fish]

JTs in position with deep stacks is a decent hand but JTo in this hand is utter trash.

[jdubs]

he did call 1/3 his stack off on it, out of position, no less.

[Isop]

He didn't call 1/3 of his stack PF on it... he called 200/2460 <10%. The CO called off that amount, but we don't know what he had.

I agree that the jto OOP is a high risk and generally dangerous play. He tried to limp with it, was raised, saw a (relatively) cheap flop, and hit. I'm surprised he called the raise with shorty left to act behind him, but other than his loose hand selection and passive play preflop, I don't see a big problem here.

I'm not trying to argue that it's a not weak holding preflop, played very passively, but if we assume JT is slightly more valuable than a mid pp, wouldn't you play 55 or 66 much the same way in this situation? Limp, call a small raise, and see a flop? He's getting perfect implied odds with the raise (call 150 to possibly win 1525 (raiser's stack) + 595 (CO stack) + 375 (pot) = 2495. Even if CO folds, it's still call 150 to win 1900).

All the literature I have been reading lately has been pointing me in the direction of seeing more flops and playing more pots with reasonable holdings. I entirely agree that this hand will be one that is folded more often than not postflop, and there will be many times it will hit a straight draw that won't complete. Played passively as this player has preflop, however, means it plays much the same as a small pp - when you hit with it, you often get paid off, especially with an opp raising preflop. We've seen from other threads that a random hand will flop 2 pair or better approximately 5% of the time (1/20). With all of the straight draws this hand has possible with it, my gut(alas, no pokerstove at work!) is telling me it has to have a better chance of hitting a flop than 5%, and I expect it is likely much the same as a pp hitting a set, ~14%. Assuming it is around 10%, why not see a cheap flop with it, from any position, on a passive table? (Of course, this requires implied odds be over 10:1 - no point playing if it's less.) On a smart table that often has LP raises, I would stay away from it, naturally.

I'd love to see some constructive comments in regards to this. What does everyone think of the idea of playing JT similar to a small pp? Does the math compute?

ISOP

P.S. I suppose most of what I am arguing here is that we shouldn't just assume MP here is a moron for playing this hand this way. We weren't at the table... it could be that most pots were 4 or 5 opps limping, and very few raises, which would make a speculative hand easier and more profitable to play. The hand was certainly disguised effectively here. There are lots of factors which might have led MP to decide it was a smart hand to play, none of which we have information on.