Playing JT

[Isop]

I'm actually taking this information from a recent thread and putting the idea under its own topic, because I would like to see more discussion on the topic and there are some questions which remain unanswered for me that I'd really like to work out.

Tourney is pokerstars 10+1 regular.
Blinds 25/50. Table is reasonably passive, 1/2 the hands so far have had 4 or 5 people limping in the pot. CO is a calling station, rarely raising. BU is t/agg and understands position.

UTG (t1170)
Hero (t2460)
MP2 (t1930)
CO (t645)
BU (t1725)
SB (t2305)
BB (t3175)

Hero is MP1 with Jc Tc
1 fold, Hero calls t50, 1 fold, CO calls t50, BU raises to t200, 2 folds, MP1 ???


I personally like to play these, even with the raise and being OOP. I look at them as being very similar in strength to a small pair, they are a flip with two overs. I was wondering if someone could help me figure out mathematically if I am correct in this.

My thinking was to play them very similarly to a small pair... i.e. call a small raise (up to 10% of my or the raiser's stack, whichever is smaller) with the hope of hitting a hand... either a very strong draw, or 2 pair or better. Anything else and I fold the flop. Is this a leak? What if I know I'm up against AA and the A is my suit? Does it change much if the hand is unsuited?

I'd really appreciate it if someone were to go through all of the concepts on this one... when it would be advisable to play these speculatively (if it's even worth playing speculatively) from any position, not just the late ones. If it's a -EV play I feel I need to understand why to convince myself to stay away from it.

Isop

[Da GOAT]

Hero is MP1 with Jc Tc
1 fold, MP1 calls t50, 1 fold, CO calls t50, Hero raises to t200, 2 folds, MP1 ???

who are you????? Hero raising or MP1

[Isop]

oops - fixed my post

[Da GOAT]

answer is awkward to explain.

as played its a fold first and then an easy fold after the raise.

CO is a donk since is stack doesnt warrant more limping by him, raiser will know how much CO has left when he raises so he aint afraid of putting in 650 odd.

if your playing JT, play in LP only. low level sng have donk raising so much that you cant really profit limping in EP all the time.

also SNG are NOT like cash games where you can loosen up. early game strategy in SNGs is tight because its the opposite of the table context(ie low stakes players are very loose and think they need to build chips early to have a chance at first and so play crap cards). now we take adv of their play be playing on average much better starting hands.

i dont know if this post helps but ask me something more specific.

I rarely play JT. it pretty much has no use in low level SNGs.

[Isop]

My main question was whether or not it carries the same kind of weight as a hand like 88. I don't think any of us would object to someone playing 88 from EP fairly early in the SnG, and I think I have seen from other posts and Pokerstove that JTs is virtually 50/50 with an underpair (and a favourite over 22).

Against AKs JTs preflop odds are 65:35 if they're the same suit, and a little better (61:39) if of different suits.
59:41 with AKo:JTs (ace is of a different suit.) 60:40 If the ace or king is of the same suit.

Against an overpair (AA-QQ), we're looking at about 82:18, roughly the same as an overpair vs an underpair.

Against an underpair we're at worst a slight dog (51:49 with 99) and more of a favourite as the pp gets lower (47:53 vs 44).

Against TT we're a dog, 61:39, and JJ a huge dog (82:18)

So, since most people suggest playing small/mid pp's from mid position (just don't get cute with them) what I am wondering is why we choose not to play JTs in the same way. Even if we know we're up against AA, I suspect most of us would call a small raise (less than 10% of our stack) with 55-99 and see a flop. Why not with JTs?

It just feels like JT is a very easy hand to play, both preflop and postflop, which is a good favourite against most of the hands donks at lower levels play, and a good value against tight players since it has lots of possibilities and is easy to get away from. In thinking more about it, I would far rather play JT than AJ, from a simplicity of play point of view. It is far more cut and dry than playing AJ or AT.

Isop

[Da GOAT]

oh i see what your saying.

this mode of thinking may cost you alot of money.

All PP that are limped are near primarily played for set value. and when you hit the set you have the chance to stack someone.

if someone has raised after you limp you can only call if odds are there to call.

JT and any other hand like it are NOT like PP's. you cant hunt for set value. also what flops are you keen to see;

-J or T high flops are very dangerous with a high chance of been dominated

-flop OESD or flush draw. you will find it hard to chase these since pot odds usually arent there and its usually incorrect to bet them down to the end.

-2 pair is about the best you can hope for but can get drawn out on.

seems that a good flop usually requires you to get all your chips in on the flop when your a 2:1 dog to hit your draw.

Plus how is it easy to get away from? if you hit a piece you usually would have to reraise the c/b or bet into the raiser who can reraise you.

i dont like it at all, these hands are nothing like a PP. your calc all include the fact you see all the cards till showdown everytime with inst realistic.

[TLR]

Just because JT and 88 are 50/50 heads up does not mean you should play them the same way. This is the major flaw in your thinking, BTW 44 and 58 are almost a flip as well, so yo will play 58 the same way you play 44 ?

With pocket 8's if you hit an 8 you most probably have the best hand and a good chance to take down a nice pot.

With JTs the only flop that gives you a similar monster hand is 987.
Even if you flop 2 pair (much less likely then flopping a set with PP) then it means there is a str8 draw out and you need to play it fast.

In the specific hand that you posted you also have the CO who limped behind you, and may raise it, so I am dumping JTs (I am also dumping 88 here BTW).

If I was closing the action I may call it in certain situations, but I need some read on the raiser (that he is not too tight) and confidence in my ability to outplay him postflop if we both miss

[taipan168]

I agree with what Goat said, these are trouble hands when blinds are relatively small and OOP. I stack a LOT of players who limp with hands like QJs, hit a Q on the flop and can't get away from it when I have AQ.

A couple of other factors to consider:
- Sets are very well disguised hands, say you have 77 and the flop comes A72, many players can't get away from the hand when they have something like A8
- Flushes stick out like the proverbial, if you have JTs and the flop comes A72 with 2 of your suit, opp bets, you call with odds and the third of your suit comes, unless you're beat by a higher flush you'll often get no more action

your calc all include the fact you see all the cards till showdown everytime with inst realistic.

This is true, you have to consider how often you'll hit a FLOP that you like (2 pair, trips, straight/flush draw).

Also, you have to consider how often you'll win enough chips taking into account the frequency that you hit to compensate for all the times you miss the flop and have to fold. Take the example of a set - you hit a set 11.8% of the time when you have a pocket pair, so say at 15/30 blinds if you limp, you need to win 30/11.8% = 254 chips every time you hit your set to make it worthwhile, which clearly on average you would.

[FlyingSaucy]

this mode of thinking may cost you alot of money.

QFT This is all fine and good with preflop analysis, however you're not playing this hand all in preflop. You will find most often that if you get involved in pots like this out of position, that you can hit a J on the flop, fire out a bet, and still are completely clueless of where you stand when you get called and the turn hits a Q, K , A, or even a rag. Then you find yourself checking into a sizable pot, the preflop raiser has position on you and will bet into you and you need to decide if you are going to risk the rest of your stack on this hand.