AK fourbet vs light-threebetting tag.

[Renton]

I'll do this as two parts. First I wanna talk about the preflop action. Isn't it almost standard to do this with AK in this scenario? Or is it at least a feasible play that you can mix it up with? It seems like flat calling just gives the pot up way too much on the flop, and folding obviously sucks.

FullTiltPoker Game #1132001332: Table Ambler (6 max) - $1/$2 - No Limit Hold'em - 0:30:24 ET - 2006/10/22
Seat 1: loloPOZZEDu ($379.95)
Seat 2: HewyO ($91.55)
Seat 3: koreanboy ($242.15)
Seat 4: spalding smails ($306.10)
Seat 5: hardway212 ($200)
Seat 6: MrsJoer ($105.35)
HewyO posts the small blind of $1
koreanboy posts the big blind of $2
5 seconds left to act
The button is in seat #1

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to loloPOZZEDu [As Kd]

spalding smails folds
MrsJoer folds
loloPOZZEDu raises to $7
HewyO folds
koreanboy raises to $22
loloPOZZEDu raises to $72



Then, the flop action:

*** FLOP *** [Td 6d 8h]
koreanboy checks

Renton has 170 behind effective and is looking at a very juicy 145 pot, and VERY clearly representing AA or KK, and has 6 outs plus two backdoor draws (about 30 ish percent equity) vs villains most likely holding (QQ/JJ). What does he do?

[gabe]

preflop is good, postflop depends on what you put him on preflop to call such a rereraise

[Renton]

QQ JJ maybe KK, i think he always shoves AA back

[gabe]

if he called with JJ preflop its not so he can check fold this type of flop

[Renton]

but isn't 30% equity vs QQ enough that we're forced to bet this flop? Or do we just peel a turn card off and hope for the best.

Aren't we obligated to defend our bet?

[benny999]

my first reaction is to just play the same as the hand ur repping. but maybe not if you have no fold equity...not sure then.

ok actually thinking more, it sounds like his plan is what gabe wrote - check/raising any non A and possibly K high flop. if it's like that then it seems like you're best shot is check back and hit an A, or fold. the +ev of the 4bet came from pre flop fold equity, and the chance of hitting a favorable flop even if called...right?

[gabe]

but isn't 30% equity vs QQ enough that we're forced to bet this flop? Or do we just peel a turn card off and hope for the best.

Aren't we obligated to defend our bet?

just because pot size would justify sticking it in if we saw their cards, doesnt make it the most +ev thing to do

[Iwind]

Agree with that, if he has QQ/JJ this is the flop he is hoping for apart from a set, and if you are sure he will call you pushing it in there is a bad idea. Take the turn for free, if you're lucky you might get the river for free as well from a scared JJ/QQ who has decided he will c/c and not bet.

[Iwind]

I don't 4-bet any hands in position unless we're deep btw, and usually not OOP either unless someone is 3-betting me IP to much. That's just the way I play though, as long as AK is not the only hand you 4-bet I don't think it's bad. Some only 4-bet AK though, and then people can start pushing PPs at you wich you don't want

[Renton]

i am doing this with QQ plus a lot, but not all the time (and not all the time with AK for that matter)

[aislephive]

Check. The majority of his range is check raising all in.

[Renton]

Doesn't he fold TT-QQ sometimes? He doesn't need to very much for us to have +EV, and if we check, thats basically giving up on 30% equity in a very big pot. Plus he could have AK possibly.

Betting just seems like the natural play. I obviously understand that Im getting called there a lot, but it doesn't really matter, because I am probably not far behind. He probably only needs to fold 25% of the time for me to have plus ev, but if I check Its almost always going to end with neutral ev.

Please convince me more that checking is the right option.

thanks

[Miffed22001]

what would you do if you had AA here?

[gabe]

Doesn't he fold TT-QQ sometimes? He doesn't need to very much for us to have +EV, and if we check, thats basically giving up on 30% equity in a very big pot. Plus he could have AK possibly.

Betting just seems like the natural play. I obviously understand that Im getting called there a lot, but it doesn't really matter, because I am probably not far behind. He probably only needs to fold 25% of the time for me to have plus ev, but if I check Its almost always going to end with neutral ev.

Please convince me more that checking is the right option.

thanks

if he calls preflop with QQ/JJ, its not so he can fold it on this flop. checking isn't giving up equity, its taking a shot at alot more equity for free

[alias2211]

i hear what's being said about checking behind. but as far as balancing out your AK PF 4bets w/ other holdings though, what other PF hands do you 4bet that check behind? i am just not sure the 4bet PF then check behind flop is a play you make with just about ANY other 4bet hands in your range. accordingly, i like a flop check behind a lot less.

given a blank turn, isn't any hand that he is at least minimally able to fold on your flop push more likely to call a turn push if he checks in front again? that is, i think it is more likely that JJ check/calls the turn push than the flop push. i think you lose your shot to rep AA/KK on a flop check against his 1010-QQ after the flop.

i need some more convinving too.

[Fnord]

Check behind, his flop check is a mistake and I don't think we induce a bigger one.

With a little more than pot behind turning our hand face up on the table isn't a big deal. We might check with AA anyway so there is a little balance.

My only concern with checking behind is that I don't want to establish a lack of follow-through when we threaten a certain line.

[gabe]

i hear what's being said about checking behind. but as far as balancing out your AK PF 4bets w/ other holdings though, what other PF hands do you 4bet that check behind? i am just not sure the 4bet PF then check behind flop is a play you make with just about ANY other 4bet hands in your range. accordingly, i like a flop check behind a lot less.

given a blank turn, isn't any hand that he is at least minimally able to fold on your flop push more likely to call a turn push if he checks in front again? that is, i think it is more likely that JJ check/calls the turn push than the flop push. i think you lose your shot to rep AA/KK on a flop check against his 1010-QQ after the flop.

i need some more convinving too.

then dont push AA here everytime

[Renton]

So he never has QQ and makes a crying call preflop, to try to hit a set or see if you show weakness on the flop? He never folds this to a flop push?

[Fnord]

So he never has QQ and makes a crying call preflop, to try to hit a set or see if you show weakness on the flop? He never folds this to a flop push?

Fuck if I know man. So little to work with.

If you think he's calling just to make you follow through his range is at least 22+, maybe AK, maybe more.

[alias2211]

i thought about this one all day. it's really one of those hands that you play for balance and image, because it has more of an effect overall than it does for your stack in that one hand. since you don't describe any history or villain's characteristics, it's hard to tell you what is most definitely the most +EV move in general.

consensus from some strong players on FTR seems to be to check down/take the free turn card. and i would do this occasionally, but only based on information about villain that you can't/don't provide here. i think it sounds like i need to mix in a little more passivity for flavor on flops like that, as appropriate, so i'll try to look out for that over my next few sessions and see if i can try some stuff out. but it will vary from player to player and from session to session. use this sort of hand to your advantage in subsequent hands, especially against the same villain if you play together for awhile after something like this happens or if he's a regular.

good thread, thanks.

[Lukie]

Interesting to note is that folding preflop isn't an option. If you are truly beign 3-bet at light then you shouldn't fold, but against some you can fold here preflop some of the time and feel good about it. Against nits, it's standard.

After you 4-bet and get called, I'd probably just check it here and hope to spike an A or K. I also don't like your estimate of having 30% equity as it's assuming that you always have two live overcards plus the nearly insignificant backdoor flush draw and completely insignificant backdoor straight draw.

[Miffed22001]

whatever you do with AA/KK do with AK. If opp has shown the need to stack off with QQ here regardless then id probably check given the free card, but most often im pushing here.

[gabe]

whatever you do with AA/KK do with AK. If opp has shown the need to stack off with QQ here regardless then id probably check given the free card, but most often im pushing here.

your first sentence and second sentence dont go together