Can't break out

[BallerTimeCh]

Hey everyone,

I'll start with my poker history. I've been playing on and off the last couple years, overall down $700 online. I've picked it up again after a long hiatus in honest hope of being able to make a steady income. I've been playing for about a month now, and I'm still playing with the same $100 I bought in with which I am somewhat proud about, since it's the longest $100 has lasted me. I'm currently playing on .15/.25 tables at PokerRoom. On to the point!

It seems to me I'm playing a sound game, but I keep on falling back to the low $100's, and it feels like theres this wall that I just can't break through. I would have to categorize myself as a TAgg player. How I'm trying to deal is by honing my folding skills down. Example: Letting go of a set based on reading the table, the player, and my gut. I still have plenty of room for improvement in that area - I usually feel I have to reassure my judgement was right by seeing their cards, which is obviously a leak - but folding say a JJ preflop after telling raises around the table is easy for me.

However, I feel at this point I am getting diminishing returns by focusing on that problem. Have any of you felt the same way when you were starting? How did you break that barrier? I would really appreciate your input, I'm so close I can feel it. Is there an area if improvement that I'm not aware of?

Godwin

P.S. Does anyone know any free dataloggers?

[Reidak]

BANKROLL MANAGEMENT

[Pelion]

Bankroll Management 101. Important to new players by a500lbgorilla

[BallerTimeCh]

I've already read that, and I think my game is very sustainable for the blinds I'm playing at. At no point within this last month have I fallen below $80 out of the $100 I invested. I think the .15c/.25c games are very sustainable. I only buy in with $15 each time, not the max of $25. I do this in order to prevent losing a quarter of my bankroll to bad beats. At any given time, I understand I'm risking 15% of my bankroll, but I've been hanging around $130 anyway, so it really breaks down to just over 11%.

Also, bankroll management completely misses what I was asking.

[Pelion]

What you were asking is nowhere near as important as what we told you. You are heading for the big Bustomart in the sky but if thats what you want then fair enough.

You break the barrier by playing disciplined, winning, fully bankrolled poker. Once you start doing that you realise the barrier never existed in the first place.
The second way you break the barrier is by not folding sets anymore unless its really obvious you are beat (e.g. a flush or straight just completed and someone who has just been calling starts going crazy).

[BallerTimeCh]

I've read the bankroll management over again and I see what you're trying to get across, thanks for the input. I still haven't been able to fold a set yet, as I've said before I need to prove my read was correct, so I still call. In all instances I called with the set, there was no out of control betting on the river, but I did get to see my read was correct (unfortunately). That's a signal that is easy for me to pick up on to get out - given there are possibilities on the board. Other ideas relating to real-time gameplay?

[donkbee]

People who don't follow bankroll management will always go broke eventually. That's the most important thing for you to realize right now.

[bode]

and for gods sake dont buy in short. you said you buy in at $15 to minimize losses when you take a bad beat. what about the times that you have the stone cold nuts and you have 2 all ins with you. you just lost $20 atleast. you cant play around bad beats. you have to play a solid game and just roll with the punches.

[gop2004]

and for gods sake dont buy in short. you said you buy in at $15 to minimize losses when you take a bad beat. what about the times that you have the stone cold nuts and you have 2 all ins with you. you just lost $20 atleast. you cant play around bad beats. you have to play a solid game and just roll with the punches.

I agree totally with this. All you're doing by limiting yourself this way is unconciously admitting that you can't fold when you should. It's kind of like the "prevent defense" in football. All you're doing is conceeding too much to your oppenents. When you do go all in you wanna take as much from the villians as possible. Also, I would add that you should not only buy in for the max, but you should keep buying more chips every time you drop below the max buyin. That way you will always get the max benefit from your all in wins. If you think you're having a bad day, leave the table. Don't play short. It also marks you out to the good players as at least a little bit of a mark. If you keep yourself fully stacked it shows you may know what you're doing. GL

[BallerTimeCh]

That's a real good point. I have to agree with what you said about not trusting myself to be able to fold a hand. Thanks.

[XTR1000]

I only buy in with $15 each time, not the max of $25. I do this in order to prevent losing a quarter of my bankroll to bad beats.

this is why BR Management is so important. in any hand u play you´re feared of losing a significant part of your roll and this fear affects your play. you can´t avoid being beaten;beats do happen, just as your monsters get paid from time to time and then you bought in short and threw 10 bucks right out of the window.

[Reidak]

If your not willing to listen

to the MOST IMPORTANT imformation on this forum

then you REALLY are asking to lose.

Swallow your pride, and play where you belong.

[BallerTimeCh]

OK, I've realized buying in short isn't a good idea, so I definitely need to increase my bankroll at this point. Point taken. I appreciate all the advice given thus far and I think I'm good for now, I'm gonna see how my game changes in the next few weeks.

[FlyingSaucy]

OK, I've realized buying in short isn't a good idea, so I definitely need to increase my bankroll at this point.

I don't think it's best to invest more in your bankroll from outside sources, I think it's best to use the current BR that you have and just play at a level within your roll, and do the max buy-in. For example, don't deposit another 100 so that you can still play at the .15/.25. Instead, just play with what you have and drop down to .05/.1, or lower if appropriate.

That's just personal preference though because it will means that your roll is keeping up with any learning curve there may be.

[BallerTimeCh]

I think I'd rather just deposit more money in there, since I've gotten used to the tables, and also I've taken notes on some players that I run into on an almost daily basis. My thinking is if I play a solid game with a proper bankroll, I don't have to worry about losing the principal, no matter what tables I play at (<3-6).

[WhooFleuryScores]

I also recommend you make sure you post hand histories on a daily basis on the forum. Study the guides Renton posted in addition to the Bankroll management/TILT management guides we have spread out.

[Stagemn]

Alright - get the point - even with $200, you should be playing $20NL at the max (0.10/0.20). DON'T DEPOSIT MORE! PLAY BASED ON YOUR BANKROLL! (Ignorance will lead you to pure failure.)

It is obvious that all of us say the same thing, and yet you aren't listening to any advise we give you. Step down to $10NL, master your skills, build up your bank roll to at least 2,000x the BB for the next level (or 20x Max Buy In of that level), then step up. Even at $25NL, you need to have at least $500 in your BR. Read all things mentioned above by us fellow members. Each are key points to what playing proper poker is really about.

[BallerTimeCh]

Stagemn, I was just giving my own reasons for why I'd rather stick to my .10/.25 table. A forum *is*where discussions occur, and that's what I was participating in. I personally think you are speculating without actually knowing whether I'm taking in any of this advice (sp) or not. I appreciate all the constructive posts, I really do, but it seems I'm better off hitting all the articles since it seems many of you are content with throwing the book at me. I think you should also understand that it's not the easiest thing for me to drop the things I'm accustomed to doing on cue, but I do try. I can go on and on but I'm gonna stop now. I'll let you guys know if I ever begin to turn a profit. Thanks for your contributions. I won't check on this thread anymore.

I play on pokerroom.com, their smallest table is .10/.25.

[kyc12]

you can go to Bodog, get their $100 bonus and 2-4 table their .05/.1 tables.

Or you can casino whore a little.

If you can do either of the above, your should have less of a chance of busting out than keep playing at PR.

I started with $100 and now I have over 3k via both poker and casino. You don't need to deposit additional money.

We're trying to help you, not to annoy you.

[Stripclubjunkie]

Gl i dont care, go broke...Play 5$ sng instead...

[BallerTimeCh]

My bankroll is $500 today.

[swiggidy]

I still haven't been able to fold a set yet

I may be digging up old shit, but this is not a big deal. Well, if the board is 8, 9, T, J and you have 88 maybe it's a big deal, but generally not so much.

[Spanners]

My bankroll is $500 today.

nice going. since poker room are quitting US you might want to consider doing some bonus whoring at other sites. good luck

[jyms]

I know alot of this is old hat but incase some Noob is reading this and wondering the same thing.

It seems to me I'm playing a sound game, but I keep on falling back to the low $100's, and it feels like theres this wall that I just can't break through. I would have to categorize myself as a TAgg player.

Why do You say this, what numbers prove this to you? What's your VP$P,PFR% and AF.

How did you break that barrier? I would really appreciate your input, I'm so close I can feel it. Is there an area if improvement that I'm not aware of?

Is this not what you asked? Did they not give youthe proper answers? You have no idea how important bankroll management is to your game. Let me give you an example. $25NL, You have AA in the cutoff, you open preflop with $1, BB calls, flop is 6D 9S QS, He c-bets $2.15, Pot sized bet??? If you call, he could have anything, you have to raise, you can't let him draw to a flush, He could have a set, So you raise a standard 3X to $6.45. You have no Idea where you are, if he calls your pot committed you have, what, maybe 6 bucks, $8.55 if you reloaded to the $15 after the blinds? If he calls the pot is $15.05, How do you play with this kind of money, You still have another card to see. And he may only be on a draw or smaller pair. This is a standard hand at $25NL and you have no idea what's going on until you've played hundreds of them.

With this hand, if you were to post it, they would ask, What's villians range? What's his stats? What's your table image (what's he put you on)? What was his stack size? Can you see why some of these things are important? It makes a difference that you have $100 and not $500 dollars. If you have $500, you can say, hey it's only 5% of your stack, and you would still have $18.55 behind you. Alot tougher for him to put you under the pressure of a costly reraise. But when it's 15% of your stack and you have 50% of the pot left in your stack on a marginal hand, OUCH. that's a call none of us want to make.

And for anybody new who's lookng at this with thoughts of asking a question, don't ask if you don't want the answers. Your going to get the truth, not some secret way of beating the game without following some pretty basic fundementals like bankroll management, table selection, preflop hands and position. And don't even try to learn these at $25NL without paying a price.

P.s. If not anything else, Get poker tracker. Play $5NL or $10NL and learn to use it. Make the money at those stakes to pay for it and the hud. Learn to use the numbers. Don't tell us your a TAGG. Prove it.

[Anosmic]

Okay. I wrote this in response to the thread, and even though the thread is way old I think the points apply since everyone will have just re-read it:

Can everyone who just screamed "BANKROLL MANAGEMENT" please just take a breath and think about the question.

I know you mean well, I know that bankroll management is very important but many, many, many of you have missed the point by a freakin' country mile.

At NO point did the guy say he had a BR of $100, he said he deposits $100 at a time to the poker site.

If you have the cash to keep playing when variance hits then you are rolled. It ONLY matters if the $100 is all you ever want to play poker with, in which case yes, change stakes or go bust. All you did was to get the guy to move to move $400 from his bank account to the poker room. How much have you helped him? Probably negatively to the tune of the interest his bank account gives per month.

The question of whether to deposit more is tricky. Do you roll yourself with a $500 BR, or a $100 BR and play $5NL? Or a $40 BR and play $2NL?
Well, listen to the guys here who say play $10NL, it's good advice. The higher you play, the more you risk.
Play where you want. But never use money you can't afford to lose.

That said the OP's problem is not variance, it's that he's a losing player and wants to improve (almost all of us have been there, some are still there, we understand). BR management doesn't fix that problem.

It may be worth moving down to lower stakes while you learn to win consistently. But that's really a personal judgment call. If your bank account can handle the losses then play where you want, it's your money, your hobby.

Trainer_jyms points about pokertracker and looking at the fundamentals are much more helpful. Are you really tag? Where are you losing money? Let's look at some hands.

Go out and get hold of some good books. Theory of Poker, No Limit Theory & Practice.

Mentioning the latter brings me to another point: playing short-stacked. Do it if you want. There are times when it may be worth doing so (those who don't believe me can go read NLT&P then go write a book which tells everyone why you are right and Sklansky is wrong).

The problem with playing short stacked is not that you miss out on value when you're a losing player, the problem is it requires a different strategy than playing deep stacked. You can't take a standard NL strategy and play it as a short-stack.

The trouble is that playing short-stacked effectively leaves you facing most tricky decisions on earlier streets and you don't develop the play that deep-stack poker offers. If you want to improve you're going to have to buy-in deeper and play.

A key point with bad beats is that they happen "against the odds". Which means that for every time an idiot catches his 1 in 5 shot there are 4 who don't and you collect. Bad beats are not what is causing your problems.

My advice to the OP would be to re-iterate what some of the posters above have said:

1) Get pokertracker.

2) Post Hand-histories here and ask for help with hands you lost. Others can help tell you which ones you should have folded and why. Help you develop the ability we all need to improve on: hand-reading.

3) Join the FTR Session review club (see sticky) and get someone to look over a session you've played and get to see one they've played. See what the differences are.

4) Read Renton's strat guides or PerformancePoker (up to you which). Find out where you're playing different.

5) Try to understand that variance is much more powerful than you can imagine. It's clear from what you wrote that you don't appreciate exactly how easily a good player can blow 10+ buy-ins. But we all underestimate variance till it gets us and so I won't keep going on about it now.