Stars' low-stakes SNGs are becoming semi-pointless: y/n?

[homerdash]

Although I've played the majority of SNGs in my poker career on Stars ($6-27 level), I had moved to Party speeds for $/hr considerations and then to FTP for a bit until Stars announced that they were staying open to the US. Then I moved back to Stars and find that things have changed...

Has anyone noticed the turbo SNGs from $6-27 being different in the past couple months? My observations:

-While there still are some donkeys that play loose early, the first 2 levels are starting to tighten up significantly.

-As a result, I'm finding it very common to be 9-handed going into 75/150 with stacks ranging from 800-2400.

-On top of that, people seem to be playing the bubble much more effectively than before. Again, there are still donkeys but the ratio is decreased.

With programs like SNGPT and SNG Wiz readily available, lots of information on proper SNG play on sites like here, p5s, 2p2, etc, I'm wondering where the edge is? If everyone plays the same then the rake just eats all the money eventually right? And you would only be able to make significant money while running "hot"?

I only ask because this is what I notice. Since moving back to Stars, 8-20 busts in a row with maybe 1-2 cashes in there seem pretty common. I'm still profitable so far but I wonder...

Has anyone noticed any of these things? Although if you respond with "LOL STFU NOOB VARIANCE" I can dig that too. I've played over 3000 turbo SNGs on Stars so I think I have some experience on this subject by now...

[vqc]

LOL STFU NOOB VARIANCE... =)
People still suck an increedible amount.
Being tight doesnt necessarily meant being good.

In fact its fine for a jillion people to be left when blinds get high. Alot of them (if not most of them) just dont bother taking the time to learn endgame, EVEN with all the awesome programs out there. That is where the edge is, that is where the edge has always been, and will probably remain there for a very long time.

[givememyleg]

You'll be fine.

[fjuanl]

ive noticed the play has gotten significantly worse since party stopped allowing US players

[taipan168]

ive noticed the play has gotten significantly worse since party stopped allowing US players

Me too. $16 turbos seem to have gotten really soft recently.

[Da GOAT]

variance sucks more so!! $16 are very loose right now.

[bode]

ive noticed the play has gotten significantly worse since party stopped allowing US players

agree

[mcatdog]

Being tight doesnt necessarily meant being good.

Being tight doesnt necessarily meant being good.

Being tight doesnt necessarily meant being good.

[Pelion]

ive noticed the play has gotten significantly worse since party stopped allowing US players

I play cash games and Ive noticed this too although I have to admit that I havnt played alot there yet.

Im surprised europeans seem to be that much worse than americans though.

[Da GOAT]

Im surprised europeans seem to be that much worse than americans though.

europeans have a more aggressive style which doesnt suit SNG's. american are tighter by comparison.

[johnny_fish]

fwiw, I find the 60/114s pretty tough compared to the free money at the Party 109s. Lots of 10-tabling 2+2'ers at the 114s

[taipan168]

Im surprised europeans seem to be that much worse than americans though.

europeans have a more aggressive style which doesnt suit SNG's. american are tighter by comparison.

Fish are fish and sharks are sharks, regardless of their nationality.

[Da GOAT]

Fish are fish and sharks are sharks, regardless of their nationality.

fishier fish than other fish!!

[topsoyale]

I disagree with the us euro comparison

I'm british and play a conservative game generally in SnG's
I don't think europeans are generally more loose, even though quite a of the pros have a adopted aconsiderably laggy style.

[Rondavu]

Europeans have bad teeth. This makes them less aggressive when eating food later on in life. Also, they only have sex in the european missionary position, which is almost the same, but with a spot of tea in your right hand.

Obviously Europe is only England

[Da GOAT]

Obviously Europe is only England

Making an Irish man very angry!!

Im sending a lehprechaun to burn your house

[dreday]

variance sucks more so!! $16 are very loose right now.

Im looking to try out other sites, i currently play on UB, what is the payout for the turbo $16s on Pokerstars?

[Da GOAT]

67.5
40.5
27

9 players compared to 10 at UB

[donkbee]

fwiw, I find the 60/114s pretty tough compared to the free money at the Party 109s. Lots of 10-tabling 2+2'ers at the 114s

I would tell you to play normal SnGs, but I don't want more competition.

But honestly, $60s and $114s SUCK ...

[WildBobAA]

60s are beatable, 114s are ridiculous

[homerdash]

Thanks for the input, guess I'll just continue to run terrible until it turns around again.

[vqc]

60s are beatable, 114s are ridiculous

u would think that with PStars having a higher cap of SNGs that the 114s would play easier.

[johnny_fish]

60s are beatable, 114s are ridiculous

u would think that with PStars having a higher cap of SNGs that the 114s would play easier.

Stars' 114s attracts all the Party sharks but the fish are gone It's maybe better to play at FT for the time being.

[Werddown]

I think youre just getting some variance / tough tables

At most theres usually 1-2 OKAY players at these limits per table and the rest are completely lost.

Also, what time of day do you play? I find it seems alot softer around the time US players get home from work/school in the evenings and before they go to bed... also on weekends

As far as the higher limit turbos being harder to beat now... I guess you guys will just have to outplay *gasp* other real poker players now lol.

[homerdash]

I think youre just getting some variance / tough tables

At most theres usually 1-2 OKAY players at these limits per table and the rest are completely lost.

Also, what time of day do you play? I find it seems alot softer around the time US players get home from work/school in the evenings and before they go to bed... also on weekends

As far as the higher limit turbos being harder to beat now... I guess you guys will just have to outplay *gasp* other real poker players now lol.

I don't think you've been playing the $16 turbos then... I recognize at least 2 players in almost every one of them, and I recognize them because they're 2+2 or are savage multitablers with positive ROIs. There just aren't enough fish to counteract the massive influx of TAGs that can't grind Party anymore.

I've been checking the STT forum over on that "other site", and I've seen a couple posters (who I've played with and know they're pretty good) say they're giving up SNGs and moving to cash. Their general consensus seems to be that Stars SNGs are ****ed from $16 on up if you want to make ROI in the teens. And making 6% ROI at anything but high stakes SNGs seems like a waste of time.

While I agree with what vqc originally said, that the bubble is what makes or breaks a SNG player, it's much harder to actually get to the bubble than before. More than 70% of the SNGs I've been playing are 7+ handed at 75/150 and above, so it basically turns into a crapshoot as to who's actually going to play the bubble.

The SNG bubble has burst IMO. This problem may rectify itself if more players realize they could make more at different games.

[taipan168]

I don't think you've been playing the $16 turbos then... I recognize at least 2 players in almost every one of them, and I recognize them because they're 2+2 or are savage multitablers with positive ROIs. There just aren't enough fish to counteract the massive influx of TAGs that can't grind Party anymore.

Goat, Gator, myself and others have all being playing the $16 turbos and we all think they have been quite soft recently, only a bit harder than the $6.50s. The thing with the $6.50s is that you get a LOT of players who lose at the $6.50s trying to recoup their losses at the $16s and $27s so are absolutely terrible. As I said in your previous thread, although this increases your ROI it also increases your variance because your shortstacked preflop pushes get called with more random cards. Still, in many of the tourneys I've played you get at least 2-3 of these guys donking themselves out early and (if you're lucky) doubling you up in the process.

The thing about multitablers is that I find I sometimes have an edge on them as a single tabler because they just can't pay attention to everything that's going on when they have 7 other tables to play. Plus, there are PLENTY of multitablers who aren't necessarily winning - sharkscope some of those 6-8 tablers and you'll often find they're down thousands.

While I agree with what vqc originally said, that the bubble is what makes or breaks a SNG player, it's much harder to actually get to the bubble than before. More than 70% of the SNGs I've been playing are 7+ handed at 75/150 and above, so it basically turns into a crapshoot as to who's actually going to play the bubble.

Good push/fold poker still comes into its own here - and even though play is tighter at the $16s than the $6.50s, some of these guys just don't know how to push anything but QQ+ and AK and get blinded out like Broomcorn's uncle...

[taipan168]

Here's an example of why the $16s are profitable, check out this guy's chat:

PokerStars Game #6901657943: Tournament #35200054, $15+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2006/11/05 - 06:50:57 (ET)
Table '35200054 1' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: skibbel (2750 in chips)
Seat 4: taipan168 (1855 in chips)
Seat 5: laxels1 (2735 in chips)
Seat 8: JOHNHIMPS (2045 in chips)
Seat 9: mattyrugby (4115 in chips)
skibbel: posts the ante 25
taipan168: posts the ante 25
laxels1: posts the ante 25
JOHNHIMPS: posts the ante 25
mattyrugby: posts the ante 25
taipan168: posts small blind 100
laxels1: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to taipan168 [7d 3c]
JOHNHIMPS: folds
mattyrugby: folds
skibbel: folds
taipan168: raises 1630 to 1830 and is all-in
laxels1: calls 1630
*** FLOP *** [8d 4s 7s]
mattyrugby said, "lol"
mattyrugby said, "nice"
*** TURN *** [8d 4s 7s] [Qc]
*** RIVER *** [8d 4s 7s Qc] [8s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
taipan168: shows [7d 3c] (two pair, Eights and Sevens)
laxels1: shows [Ad Jd] (a pair of Eights)
laxels1 said, "baaaaah"
mattyrugby said, "lmao"
taipan168 collected 3785 from pot
mattyrugby said, "unreal"
mattyrugby said, "only on pokerstars"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3785 | Rake 0
Board [8d 4s 7s Qc 8s]
Seat 1: skibbel (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: taipan168 (small blind) showed [7d 3c] and won (3785) with two pair, Eights and Sevens
Seat 5: laxels1 (big blind) showed [Ad Jd] and lost with a pair of Eights
Seat 8: JOHNHIMPS folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: mattyrugby folded before Flop (didn't bet)

JOHNHIMPS said, "yep"
laxels1 said, "mhm"
taipan168 said, "he was only 2:1 favourite"
mattyrugby said, "shut up.. you didnt know that before the hand donk"
mattyrugby said, "7 3 off"
mattyrugby said, "give me a break"
taipan168 said, "well then both he and I played well"
mattyrugby said, "lmao.. not even close donk"

[Werddown]

I think youre just getting some variance / tough tables

At most theres usually 1-2 OKAY players at these limits per table and the rest are completely lost.

Also, what time of day do you play? I find it seems alot softer around the time US players get home from work/school in the evenings and before they go to bed... also on weekends

As far as the higher limit turbos being harder to beat now... I guess you guys will just have to outplay *gasp* other real poker players now lol.

I don't think you've been playing the $16 turbos then... I recognize at least 2 players in almost every one of them, and I recognize them because they're 2+2 or are savage multitablers with positive ROIs. There just aren't enough fish to counteract the massive influx of TAGs that can't grind Party anymore.

I've been checking the STT forum over on that "other site", and I've seen a couple posters (who I've played with and know they're pretty good) say they're giving up SNGs and moving to cash. Their general consensus seems to be that Stars SNGs are ****ed from $16 on up if you want to make ROI in the teens. And making 6% ROI at anything but high stakes SNGs seems like a waste of time.

While I agree with what vqc originally said, that the bubble is what makes or breaks a SNG player, it's much harder to actually get to the bubble than before. More than 70% of the SNGs I've been playing are 7+ handed at 75/150 and above, so it basically turns into a crapshoot as to who's actually going to play the bubble.

The SNG bubble has burst IMO. This problem may rectify itself if more players realize they could make more at different games.

I have, and the reason you probably recognize 1-2 people at the table is because you are multi-tabling yourself.

Those 1-2 players are the ones I'm talking about when I say OKAY players.

You shouldn't have too much problem beating players you see often if you really pay attention to how they are playing, especially if they are multi-tabling... You have an edge on those players.

While it may seem difficult sometimes playing turbos since the variance is so high, the reality is that at these limits, the average level of player is poor to terrible.

[donkbee]

JOHNHIMPS said, "yep"
laxels1 said, "mhm"
taipan168 said, "he was only 2:1 favourite"
mattyrugby said, "shut up.. you didnt know that before the hand donk"
mattyrugby said, "7 3 off"
mattyrugby said, "give me a break"
taipan168 said, "well then both he and I played well"
mattyrugby said, "lmao.. not even close donk"

Shhh ... don't tell him you played that well. Why teach the fish?

[taipan168]

JOHNHIMPS said, "yep"
laxels1 said, "mhm"
taipan168 said, "he was only 2:1 favourite"
mattyrugby said, "shut up.. you didnt know that before the hand donk"
mattyrugby said, "7 3 off"
mattyrugby said, "give me a break"
taipan168 said, "well then both he and I played well"
mattyrugby said, "lmao.. not even close donk"

Shhh ... don't tell him you played that well. Why teach the fish?

Yeah, normally I never ever ever do this but he pissed me off so much that I couldn't resist. It's probably a good thing that I had run out of Sharkscope searches for today otherwise I'm sure I would have berated him for his shitty ROI

[donkbee]

hahahahaha ...

[dreday]

*** SHOW DOWN ***
taipan168: shows [7d 3c] (two pair, Eights and Sevens)
laxels1: shows [Ad Jd] (a pair of Eights)
laxels1 said, "baaaaah"
mattyrugby said, "lmao"
taipan168 collected 3785 from pot
mattyrugby said, "unreal"
mattyrugby said, "only on PokerStars"
*** SUMMARY ***

LOL,
doesn't every donk say that about thier respective site.

or "typical UB" , typical PartyPoker.

LMAO

more like "typical Donk"

[taipan168]

Hopefully this guy doesn't do a Google search on when it IS actually +EV to push 73 offsuit...oh well.

[Da GOAT]

ive found them a bit harder at the moment especially SH, i find i dont get as many chances to push SH since some other f'er pushes before i get the shot.

id say thats the only diff at the moment really and sample is very small for this but 5-7 left at 100/200 aint out of ordinary.

i may be trying a few cash/MTT alongside SNGs just to bring some more postflop to my game. just a small bit since SNG's are my game.

EDIT: screw my last para, im gonna try a few $27's tonight.

[Wooderson]

Being tight doesnt necessarily meant being good.

Alot of them (if not most of them) just dont bother taking the time to learn endgame, EVEN with all the awesome programs out there. That is where the edge is, that is where the edge has always been, and will probably remain there for a very long time.

Two of my biggest leaks and shortcommings, right there. I have great pre-flop folding ability. That's an easy skill to learn. I think I am generall pretty good post-flop even though I am a good bit nittish. I'm still on the early side of the learning curve. What kills me is getting down to the last 1/2 to 1/3 of the field when everyone tightens up... I do too rather than loosening up and stealing (which is what seems like would be a correct strategy).

Can someone give me a hint on where to find good resources for end-game strategy? I'm searching here, but any/all resources other than the 2+2 maze would be welcome.

[taipan168]

i may be trying a few cash/MTT alongside SNGs just to bring some more postflop to my game. just a small bit since SNG's are my game.

That's what I'm going to try to do too. I'm currently trying to learn a bit of cash to improve my postflop play. Particularly in a turbo, it is rare that you actually have to play a turn and a river (really only level 1/2) that I'm pretty bad at it.

I'll still be playing $16 turbos but I'll be trying a bit of $10 or $25 NL as well.

[drmcboy]

the idea that there are 1-2 sharks per 16 Turbo...

just so everyone in this thread knows, if you are playing 16 turbos, you aren't a good player. You may be one later, but you aren't right now. Sorry. At best, there are maybe a few good card players who have bad BR mgmt, but you won't run into those at 16 very often.

[taipan168]

just so everyone in this thread knows, if you are playing 16 turbos, you aren't a good player. You may be one later, but you aren't right now. Sorry. At best, there are maybe a few good card players who have bad BR mgmt, but you won't run into those at 16 very often.

I never claimed to be good. I'm just ever so slightly less bad enough than the other donks who play $16 turbos to give me a +ve ROI

[donkbee]

How about this: the point is, people still suck. And if you think you are decent at tourney poker, you should beat them. Players at the low stakes suck!

The end.

Yo taipan, go back to the cash games forum

[Jupit3r]

europeans > americans
...even without teeth.