Weak played QQ?

[FlyingSaucy]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG (t1610)
Hero (t1530)
MP1 (t1040)
MP2 (t1480)
MP3 (t1740)
CO (t1410)
Button (t1780)
SB (t1380)
BB (t1530)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q, Q.
1 fold, Hero raises to t80, 5 folds, SB raises to t140, 1 fold, Hero calls t60.

Flop: (t300) 5, 3, J (2 players)
SB bets t300, Hero calls t300.

Turn: (t900) 7 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (t900) 6 (2 players)
SB bets t250, Hero calls t250.

Final Pot: t1400

[vqc]

I think you can safely shove either the turn or the river here.

[taipan168]

I think I just shove over on the flop.

[martindcx1e]

I think I just shove over on the flop.

could you explain why? since i'm so used to ring, pushing here is really unnatural for me. i need to play spots like these better early on i think.

[taipan168]

I think I just shove over on the flop.

could you explain why? since i'm so used to ring, pushing here is really unnatural for me. i need to play spots like these better early on i think.

Sure, no problems. When I play cash I lose lots of money in these sorts of spots by pushing over!

On the flop after opp's bet there is 600 in the pot and SB has 940 behind. Opp could well be:
- c-betting with a missed AK
- semi-bluffing with a flush draw
- value betting with something like AJ
...all of which we crush with our overpair. If a scare card comes on the turn (A, K, J, heart) we may still be well ahead but if opp leads again we will have no idea whether we are still ahead and will have to fold unless the bet is very small.

AA, KK, JJ have us crushed but there is no play that we can make that will let us know whether opp has these hands. By shoving over we still have good fold equity against opp and deny him odds to draw with a flush draw or something like AK. Plus, many opps with AJ will call off their whole stack in this situation.

[martindcx1e]

I think I just shove over on the flop.

could you explain why? since i'm so used to ring, pushing here is really unnatural for me. i need to play spots like these better early on i think.

Sure, no problems. When I play cash I lose lots of money in these sorts of spots by pushing over!

On the flop after opp's bet there is 600 in the pot and SB has 940 behind. Opp could well be:
- c-betting with a missed AK
- semi-bluffing with a flush draw
- value betting with something like AJ
...all of which we crush with our overpair. If a scare card comes on the turn (A, K, J, heart) we may still be well ahead but if opp leads again we will have no idea whether we are still ahead and will have to fold unless the bet is very small.

AA, KK, JJ have us crushed but there is no play that we can make that will let us know whether opp has these hands. By shoving over we still have good fold equity against opp and deny him odds to draw with a flush draw or something like AK. Plus, many opps with AJ will call off their whole stack in this situation.

I guess I'm just scared b/c of the 3bet preflop

[taipan168]

I guess I'm just scared b/c of the 3bet preflop

Min re-raise indicates to me that he's a donk. I would be more worried if he'd put in a proper re-raise to say 250 or so.

Say his re-raising range is 99+/AJ+ (because he's a donk). On the flop, say he leads with all the PPs, AK, AhQh and AJ:

Board: 5h 3h Jc 
Dead:  

        	equity (%)  	win (%)	tie (%) 
Hand  1:	60.4591 %  	59.61% 	00.85%      { QdQh }
Hand  2:	39.5409 %  	38.69% 	00.85%      { 99+, AKs, AhQh, AJs, AKo, AJo }

Factor in some fold equity and you've got a push over IMO. We are crushed by 15 hands (JJ-AA) which will all call, flipping against 3 hands (AhJh-AhKh), tying with one (QQ) and way ahead of the rest (like 39 hands I think).

[TLR]

I think you misplayed the flop here
His reraise preflop, and a small one that wants action is probably a decent hand - AA-QQ, AK, and maybe JJ,TT, AQ
Your calling preflop is sensible, assuming you throw your hand if an A hits (and maybe even a K)
But the flop is the decision point in this hand, if he has AA,KK, JJ you are beat, if he has AK or a flush draw you dont want to give him a free card. I would shove over the flop here

[taipan168]

I think you misplayed the flop here
His reraise preflop, and a small one that wants action is probably a decent hand - AA-QQ, AK, and maybe JJ,TT, AQ
Your calling preflop is sensible, assuming you throw your hand if an A hits (and maybe even a K)
But the flop is the decision point in this hand, if he has AA,KK, JJ you are beat, if he has AK or a flush draw you dont want to give him a free card. I would shove over the flop here

Thanks TLR, I was worried I was giving him wrong advice to push over...

[MuddyWicket]

is reraising his raise preflop good here for information? or is this a bad move? its something i've been trying after reading the tourneys you guys played.

With QQ i would be tempted to just call but with weaker cards I would consider reraising to see if they are tempted to push preflop so I can get away cheaply. Is this bad thinking? or FPS?

[TLR]

is reraising his raise preflop good here for information? or is this a bad move? its something i've been trying after reading the tourneys you guys played.

With QQ i would be tempted to just call but with weaker cards I would consider reraising to see if they are tempted to push preflop so I can get away cheaply. Is this bad thinking? or FPS?

I would not do a rereraise here.
You dont want to commit too many chips here, so lets say you rereraise to 350 or so
His reraise has to interperted as indication of strength.
QQ he probably just pushes over
AK he is probably just as likely to call as to push over
AA,KK - he will probably push over but may just call here to decieve you
AQ, TT - If he reraised with those he will probably call
JJ he may either call or push over

[taipan168]

is reraising his raise preflop good here for information? or is this a bad move? its something i've been trying after reading the tourneys you guys played.

With QQ i would be tempted to just call but with weaker cards I would consider reraising to see if they are tempted to push preflop so I can get away cheaply. Is this bad thinking? or FPS?

I think this depends on the buyin. At a $6.50 I would re-raise to say 450-500 and hope they push over. At lower buyins you get all these idiots who will commit their whole stack after a re-raise with crap like AT or KQ.

At a higher buyin I would follow FlyingSaucy's line preflop.

[TLR]

is reraising his raise preflop good here for information? or is this a bad move? its something i've been trying after reading the tourneys you guys played.

With QQ i would be tempted to just call but with weaker cards I would consider reraising to see if they are tempted to push preflop so I can get away cheaply. Is this bad thinking? or FPS?

I think this depends on the buyin. At a $6.50 I would re-raise to say 450-500 and hope they push over. At lower buyins you get all these idiots who will commit their whole stack after a re-raise with crap like AT or KQ.

At a higher buyin I would follow FlyingSaucy's line preflop.

You have a point Tai.

I assumed it is the $27, which is FlyingSaucy natural hunting ground as a I recall

[FlyingSaucy]

Thanks for the advice thus far.

Sorry i didn't post what game this is.... It was actually a 180 man $22 tourney. Which is much less of a SnG per se, but since it's early and the table is full, I don't think the strat is very different here than would be in a single table sng.

My line of thinking with the flop call was "this bet could be made with practically any hand. Given his rr preflop, I am definitely concerned about AA or KK, although we'll see how he reacts to my call on the turn."
It's interesting to me that you thought the problem was on the flop. I thought I made a bad move on the turn by checking behind. I definitely feel I am getting odds to call the river bet though.

I couldn't believe what he turned over.