Is this fishy?

[Genitruc]

A good buddy was railing me and said he thought this was horrible. This is from final table of 22$ multi on stars last night.

1st place=3.2k

2nd place = 1.9k

3rd = 1.2k

I thought it was optimal, but I'm not a donkament player. I am crushing both guys postflop. I just lost my open ender + overs to villain's 2nd pair AI on the flop, hence the stacks (I was leading for most of the final table).

What do you think?

My read on villain is that he is raising preflop based on the strength of his hands (big when strong, small when weak). I feel he ll fold lots of hands to a push. He is playing very tight preflop. I am putting my cards face-up but I don't mind...

PokerStars Game #7208920710: Tournament #36700914, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level XIX (8000/16000) - 2006/11/28 - 04:56:10 (ET)
Table '36700914 41' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: phosphenes (185380 in chips)
Seat 8: Genitruc (226742 in chips)
Seat 9: MN2OH (633378 in chips)
phosphenes: posts the ante 800
Genitruc: posts the ante 800
MN2OH: posts the ante 800
phosphenes: posts small blind 8000
Genitruc: posts big blind 16000

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Genitruc [Kc Kd]
MN2OH: folds
phosphenes: raises 16000 to 32000
Genitruc: raises 32000 to 64000

[Ravageur]

I thought this was horrible and still do. My reason being that there's no reason to get cute with KK against the other two donks because you have a big enough edge exploiting them by stealing the blinds with weaker holdings etc...
And the obvious reasons that villain picks up tons of information on your hand (this was the first time Genitruc had ever done anything remotely like this at the FT) while only having to call 32K into a massive pot (even if it does represent a substantial chunk of his stack.)

Just seemed like you made the hand easy for this crappy villain to play when you can just pick up a nice pot and keep outplaying them. Take down the pot and move on to the next hand IMO.

Anyway maybe I'm way off base.

[gingerwizard]

To be in this position you must be a good player so i won't criticise, i just don't understand.

Why is it optimal to minraise here?

You are BB. SB raises. Throw in a 3xBB raise and either SB goes away AND THINKS TWICE STEALING YOUR BLIND, or he calls and you got more money in with the best hand, or he reraises and you push. I thought this was optimal???

The minraise must look like a pot sweetener to opps at this stage of an mtt at that level, so may frighten them off anyway. Also if you minraise now and it goes to showdown, opps will know that minraise from BB means strength and normal raise doesn't.

Im sure there is more going on here so could you please explain. I want to be able to get to this level in mtts.

[Genitruc]

3-handed had been going on for almost 20 min. Villain was raising about 10% of hands MAX and my read was that he was playing them according to the size of his raises (his big hands were getting big raises, small raise = small hand...). He has only raised my blind 2-3 times but the few times we saw a flop he was completely unable to fold a pair.

I felt very sure he was on a steal here and he'd fold to a push or a big raise like 80-90% of the time. Since he couldn't fold a pair on the flop I figured I was losing a ton of value by pushing him off the hand.

Obv I pooooooooooooosh if I think villain is the slightest bit functional. But this guy just seemed like such a bad nit that letting him get away from this hand easy (because I'm scared of getting 3-outered by an ace or him flopping a monster) would be criminal. taking down the pot now would add 25%-ish to my stack whereas I think I'm playing HU with villain's stack anytime villain flops a pair. I should prob do some math here (% he flops pair and pays me off... blah blah).

But maybe it IS uber-fishy. That's why I posted it.

[johnny_fish]

My standard line here is call and shove non-A flop. Maybe even slowplay one street more.

[Ravageur]

I like Johnny Fish's line more. He's a LOT more likely to stack off with any pair playing it his way than yours I think.
If he's such a nit, won't he only be stacking off with something that can beat one pair when you've shown a ton of strength preflop?

[Genitruc]

Rav, like I said in my OP he couldn't fold a pair post flop

our only big confrontation was me shoving a 3-way pot over his bet

I have 78

He calls AI with Q5 on a 2-6-5 rainbow board

so I don't think he's getting away from many hands

despite giving away my hand, minraising builds the pot so that any bet i make is not an overbet relative to his stack

also, if you want to see what I mean about him "value"-raising... look at the MTT thread where I have 1010 vs him.

I think you guys are absolutely right about a thinking player being more likely to stack off if I flat-call preflop

but this guy's horrible. he s not thinking many layers deep.

[Alexos]

What's wrong with u two, you keep arguing over and over on every post like u were brothers???

[Rondavu]

This is an obvious preflop smooth call against this opponent. If I raise preflop it's a big raise. I don't want to increase my fold equity after the flop against a bad postflop player, while giving him good odds preflop.

[chardrian]

Genitruc has given us his read and you guys are all ignoring it.

1) Gen's raise was NOT a minraise. villain's was, but Gen reraised him twice that - a minraise would have been to 48k.

2) KK 3 handed is a hand that you want to MAXIMIZE value with. If re-raising is going to get your opps to fold, then you don't raise. But if you think that you are pricing your opp in here - then price him in.

I like the play, given your read. Against a standard opp, I will normally smooth call here (opp only has 10xBB so any raise preflop he really should be pushing). But this wasn't a standard opp - so you gotta go with your reads, otherwise there is no point in making them.

[drmcboy]

if he can't fold a pair post flop, you should make sure there is a flop. If you're saying he'll never fold to this raise, of course make this raise.

[Genitruc]

Rav I think you're just pissed cuz of results. You know this hand cost you lots of beer...

Hold'em No Limit - Level XIX (8000/16000) - 2006/11/28 - 04:56:10 (ET)
Table '36700914 41' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: phosphenes (185380 in chips)
Seat 8: Genitruc (226742 in chips)
Seat 9: MN2OH (633378 in chips)
phosphenes: posts the ante 800
Genitruc: posts the ante 800
MN2OH: posts the ante 800
phosphenes: posts small blind 8000
Genitruc: posts big blind 16000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Genitruc [Kc Kd]
MN2OH: folds
phosphenes: raises 16000 to 32000
Genitruc: raises 32000 to 64000
phosphenes: calls 32000
*** FLOP *** [Js 2h Ah]
phosphenes: bets 80000
Genitruc: folds
phosphenes collected 130400 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 130400 | Rake 0
Board [Js 2h Ah]
Seat 1: phosphenes (small blind) collected (130400)
Seat 8: Genitruc (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: MN2OH (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)