Cpl interesting spots from last night

[Genitruc]

Hand 1 :

What is your standard play here and why? Flop check is for pot control btw.

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Ks As ]
rock9876 calls [$2]
Bazwaldo could not respond in time.(disconnected)
Bazwaldo folds.
Neil_Trahey calls [$2]
toffelhelt folds.
Raoh_ calls [$1]
HERO raises [$9]
rock9876 calls [$9]
Neil_Trahey calls [$9]
Raoh_ folds.

** Dealing Flop ** [ Qc, Jh, Ac ]
HERO checks.
rock9876 bets [$20]
Neil_Trahey folds.
HERO...


Hand 2 :

I have a Slagg image. Not too many confrontations w villain. He seems surprisingly decent for the P arty nl200 donkfest :

***** Hand History for Game 5466466282 *****
$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, November 28, 01:01:48 ET 2006
Table Jackpot #1307766 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: HERO ( $275.25 )
Seat 5: GimmeYoBling ( $158.05 )
Seat 4: danielj177 ( $344.18 )
Seat 2: bankofMedSyd ( $321.81 )
Seat 3: fuzzman30 ( $171.35 )
bankofMedSyd posts small blind [$1].
fuzzman30 posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ 9d 6d ]
danielj177 folds.
GimmeYoBling folds.
HERO raises [$7]
bankofMedSyd calls [$6]
fuzzman30 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7d, 3d, 6h ]
bankofMedSyd bets [$9]
HERO raises [$33]
bankofMedSyd raises [$101]
HERO ...

Hand 3 :

I've been playing this villain shorthanded on a few tables. He's a huge loose-passive fish.

***** Hand History for Game 5466348739 *****
$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, November 27, 23:19:16 ET 2006
Table Table 125383 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 6: HERO ( $478.90 )
Seat 4: hubicsak ( $191.84 )
Seat 3: angel6333 ( $96.18 )
Seat 1: DeputyDaag ( $75.51 )
Seat 5: joethegorean ( $199.75 )
angel6333 posts small blind [$1].
hubicsak posts big blind [$2].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ 9h 9s ]
joethegorean folds.
HERO raises [$7]
DeputyDaag folds.
angel6333 folds.
hubicsak calls [$5]

** Dealing Flop ** [ Tc, 4h, 9c ]
DJ_rewind has joined the table.
hubicsak checks.
HERO bets [$11]
hubicsak calls [$11]

** Dealing Turn ** [ Ad ]
hubicsak checks.
HERO bets [$33]
hubicsak calls [$33]

** Dealing River ** [ 2c ]
hubicsak is all-In.
HERO pukes then...

[nutsinho]

hand 1 i call and see where he wants to go with it on the turn...fold to a big bet unimproved

hand 2 he doesnt have just a pair so i think you should fold. I used to always raise/get all in on this flop but when a decent player leads into and 3bets the pfr, he has a set or two overs with flush draw most every time-not the range youre looking to get it in against.

[nutsinho]

oh yeah hand 3 i fold, you said he's l/p and that makes the decision fairly trivial

[johnny_fish]

1: c/c flop, check turn, evaluate bet & turn card.
2: fold; too deep, tainted outs, no FE.
3: easy fold. You're sometimes ahead of donkish 2p/lower set/missed straight draw, but nowhere near enough to make it a call.

[andy-akb]

1. I bet this flop simply because our hand is decently strong and if we c/c we arent really going to know where we stand when facing a turn bet. As played I cant see folding and raising isnt too great I would imagine, so I jsut call. Again though, Id much rather have bet this flop.

2. Against most opponents you have incredibly small FE on the flop after they bet/3bet. Against a decent opponent we can expect most PPs to reraise PF, probably at least 99+ and lower ones arent folding. You are probably also getting raised by broadways PF and if they do make it into villains postflop range, you probably arent getting bet/3bet. The only hands I could see using this line postflop are sets and combo draws because other hands dont really make sense given the PF action. The problem with combo draws is you have the 9d so he could only be doing this with like 5d4d so that isnt a big part of his range. If you call do you think he is pushing most turns? I suck at figuring out how much we need to make with implied odds for a play to be +EV, but I would intuitively guess that if we can count on his stack we are getting the odds to call.

3. This is gross, but if he really is very passive I guess its a fold. Is he passive on all 3 streets? Does he ever bluff missed draws? Ugh, I really dont know if we are seeing a passive player bluffing a board like this when you have shown a good amount of strength. Im leaning towards a fold.

hand 2 he doesnt have just a pair so i think you should fold. I used to always raise/get all in on this flop but when a decent player leads into and 3bets the pfr, he has a set or two overs with flush draw most every time-not the range youre looking to get it in against.

Maybe Im more aggressive than most, but in a blind steal situation I am going to be 3betting most broadways against an Agg button. How big of a part of a decent players range do we think two overs are here? I can see a hand like 9d8d doing this but we have the 9d, that also elimates a more random possiblity of a hand like Td9d for FD+GSD. So the only remaining overs w/ a FD [unless he is waaaay overplaying random suited gappers] really are broadways which honestly just dont make a ton of sense to me. I would put a huge part of his range on a set and my question is somewhat player dependet and also because I suck at figuring out math; If we call here can we expect him to get his stack in on the turn, and if the turn checks through and we see the river free will he get his stack in there and beyond that, are those implied odds enough to make it profitable?

[nutsinho]

you b3b naked overs on this flop? wow

[Warpe]

I lead on hand 1 as well.

[andy-akb]

you b3b naked overs on this flop? wow

Im saying I 3bet them PF to a button steal and would assume most aggressive players would as well especially given a loose opener on the button. How big a part of his range would you give to a bigger FD?

[Genitruc]

I'm glad these spots were as interesting as I thought they were... since these are the results :

hand 1 :

I check-raise shorty AI. He inst-calls with A10 and my hand holds up

hand 2 :

I push and villains almost times out then CALLS (???) with 44 lmao... GG image

hand 3 :

I puked and called villain had rivered 2 pair (10 2) lol

guess I just ran good in these hands...

[IowaSkinsFan]

Personally I fold all 3, and i definetely bet hand 1 if you wanted to get involved.

[Chopper]

this is where i get stupid, i guess.

hands 2,3 are easy folds, to me.

but hand 1 is where i have a comment and question.

question: How is checking controlling the pot? in 6max, it seems if you raise pf and check the flop, you are getting bet at...and it aint small...usually 3/4 to full psb back in your face, and you have NO idea what the bettor has, at least i dont. pp, draw, 2 pair, set, KTs?

comment: w/ TPTK and a nut str8 draw, it seems that the nitty move is to lead out and CONTROL THE POT...that is what i would do btw. however, imo, the aggro move is to c/r. and, if i have a read, that is what i will do...but only about 10% of the time. i certainly dont check unless i am setting up the c/r.

[Genitruc]

this is where i get stupid, i guess.

hands 2,3 are easy folds, to me.

but hand 1 is where i have a comment and question.

question: How is checking controlling the pot? in 6max, it seems if you raise pf and check the flop, you are getting bet at...and it aint small...usually 3/4 to full psb back in your face, and you have NO idea what the bettor has, at least i dont. pp, draw, 2 pair, set, KTs?

comment: w/ TPTK and a nut str8 draw, it seems that the nitty move is to lead out and CONTROL THE POT...that is what i would do btw. however, imo, the aggro move is to c/r. and, if i have a read, that is what i will do...but only about 10% of the time. i certainly dont check unless i am setting up the c/r.

I don't think it's stupid at all, Chopper. I screwed up OP by not having stack sizes so the most important information is missing. Villain who bets has 138$ before hand and villain who folds on flop has 500$. This is very important for the flop action :

-I don't really want to fold my hand if I'm raised by the bigstack after c-betting the flop, especially since most of these players suck. Why? Because since it's such a draw-heavy board, many of the hands ppl will be raising me with are basically even-money (pair + flush draw/straight draw etc...). The absolute best hands I'll see raising the flop here are usually AJ and QJ... maybe the odd flopped str8 too obv.

This is especially important because of the 2 very different villains in the hand.

1st villain is a shorty (70ish bb stack). Notice he limp-called utg. This is usually not a big hand. The strongst part of his range is usually a pp. Otherwise it could be any 2 sooted or a bad ace (also some kj/qj-ish stuff). If he had AQ or AK (or even a big pocket pair) he would have probably gone for the lame limp-reraise move.

2nd villain is deepstacked and limped behind. He called my raise getting nice odds after shorty did (usually I raise to 11$ in this spot but I screwed up the preflop action). He likely puts me on big cards and is looking to crack me. So knowing that, it's unlikely he has an AQ-ish hand (which he would have raised the shorty with).

So if I'm played back at on the flop, it's probably a pair+flush draw from the bigstack or bottom 2 pair. Basically I'm willing to play for pretty much the shorty's stack but want to avoid a huge pot with the bigstack.

Checking the flop allows me to bet/check-raise a safe turn and keep the pot small vs the bigstack (I'm not all that worried about giving up a 10bb pot if the turn card is scary and ppl start going crazy).

If the shorty bets and the bigstack calls, I will have a much closer idea of the bigstack's holdings (based on what I've already seen of him ; in this case, not much ) and I can trap his dead money and isolate the shorty (very unlikely shorty has me beat in a big way). Or if he seems to be drawing (this will clearly depend on history w villains at the table) then I can call and fire or check-call/check-raise a safe turn.

Finally, if I AM way ahead, checking the flop will allow me to get paid off much better in a medium-sized pot vs the bigstack on the turn and river if he has a 2nd best type hand (like Q10 or a weak ace). Pretty tough to put me on AK since almost everybody "protects" a flop like this w AK.

This is a very important concept for me that I think most people ignore. Playing vs other deepstacks on draw-heavy boards, I'm usually persuaded to protect my stack (rather than my pair) by checking strong 1-pair hands (exception being maybe big overpairs) on draw-heavy flops. This way, I usually get to play a smaller pot when the draws my opponent could be drawing to DO hit, when they don't hit I'll get to give villain a bad price on the turn (which he'll almost always - incorrectly - take) and when he does hit his draw he'll have to pull some ridiculous overbet on the river to make it worth his while.

And like I said the other benefit of taking this line is ppl will often call turn and river bets with terribly weak holdings.

[mcatdog]

Quality post.

[Chopper]

nice thought process. makes me realize how much farther i have to go to get past the "abc poker" i try to play. i wouldnt consider myself a newbie, but i am clearly no veteran, either.

i figure most, me as well, would bet/protect flop, bet/protect turn ui and if no 9 or club hits, bet the river. i guess the problem is you build a big pot for the straight or flush to keep drawing all the way, right? when the draw hits, you lose a monster pot; however, what i see here is: instead you keep the pot small and, if you hold up, win a small-medium pot and possibly get a value bet called on the river by a crappier hand?

if i correctly understand, that is a safer, more profitable line to take here.

thanks.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

the check on the first hand was very foresightful and worked out perfectly. hands 2 and 3 are folds, you don't have enough invested to go any further without reads.

Are people really this terrible in 1/2!?

[Genitruc]

the check on the first hand was very foresightful and worked out perfectly. hands 2 and 3 are folds, you don't have enough invested to go any further without reads.

Are people really this terrible in 1/2!?

yes