What do you think of Turbos?

[losttrem]

Hey there,

I just wanted to ask about your opinion on Turbo Sngs. I know that a lot of people see them as "crapshoots", where skill plays a rather small role over luck. But I really like them and play them almost exclusively. For me as a micro stakes player (3 + 0,40) I think my biggest edge lies in bubble play. At these levels most players have the same style: Play wild while blinds are small and tighten up and play scared at the bubble. So thanks to FTR I really improved my bubble play and the results are great (for my standards). Thats what makes Turbos so attractive. You get to the bubble much faster and thereby gain a big edge over the other players.

[taipan168]

You hit the nail on the head. ROI at the turbos is probably a bit lower than at an equivalent stake normal because sometimes you just don't get any cards and have to push with crap, but if you know how to play the bubble you will have a HUGE edge over your opps, particularly at the $3.40s.

I (and quite a few other posters on this board and 2p2) exclusively play turbos too.

[Da GOAT]

I (and quite a few other posters on this board and 2p2) exclusively play turbos too.

yup

[donkbee]

turbos suck once you get past the $60 level. even $60s suck a lot.

[taipan168]

turbos suck once you get past the $60 level. even $60s suck a lot.

I haven't played any $60s but from what I hear there isn't much of an edge there, most players understand push/fold ICM very well. $27s and below are (hopefully) still beatable though.

[GatorJH]

turbos suck once you get past the $60 level. even $60s suck a lot.

I haven't played any $60s but from what I hear there isn't much of an edge there, most players understand push/fold ICM very well. $27s and below are (hopefully) still beatable though.

The $16's on Stars are CERTAINLY beatable, especially with so many fish migrating over from other sites.

[bode]

they're just like crack....

























delicious!

[swiggidy]

Turbos, lower ROI, higher $/hr

Personally I hate them, but whatever

[dsmrolla06]

My roi for turbos is around -2% (pretty small sample however) at the 6.50s compared to about 38% roi at the $11 reg speeds.

[donkbee]

turbos suck once you get past the $60 level. even $60s suck a lot.

I haven't played any $60s but from what I hear there isn't much of an edge there, most players understand push/fold ICM very well. $27s and below are (hopefully) still beatable though.

yup ... just ask johnny

i've never played a 114 before, but i've played the 60s and despise them.

[FlyingSaucy]

$27s I'm only showing 5% ROI over 90 games. I know its not a lot of games but my general sense of them is that you're better off playing multitable sngs at lower levels where there is more dead money.

[givememyleg]

Time = $
Turbos = <Time
_____________
Turbos = >$

But play whichever appeals to you more highly.

[jimmy44]

$27s I'm only showing 5% ROI over 90 games. I know its not a lot of games but my general sense of them is that you're better off playing multitable sngs at lower levels where there is more dead money.

I agree that playing 2 table SNGs are better due to the less variation compared to turbos. Mainly I feel that 2-table SNGs have more donks in the initial part of the SNG.

[gingerwizard]

Poker is fun.
Turbos = less poker
Ergo Turbos = less fun.

Money is great and I would hate to be a losing player but I still wanna play poker, not spend 15-25 minutes waiting for a good shove and taking a coin flip.

[Da GOAT]

Poker is fun.
Turbos = less poker
Ergo Turbos = less fun.

Money is great and I would hate to be a losing player but I still wanna play poker, not spend 15-25 minutes waiting for a good shove and taking a coin flip.

play cash then. even regular SNGs do not require you to play POKER. i used to play just a few hands anyway based on tight is right at the regulars.

point is SNGs are about shoving and calling shoves. even at regulars. thinking about them in a different way is ignorant of the type of game it is.

''ignorant'' is harsh but my vocab sucks

[Sprayed]

Poker is fun.
Turbos = less poker
Ergo Turbos = less fun.

Money is great and I would hate to be a losing player but I still wanna play poker, not spend 15-25 minutes waiting for a good shove and taking a coin flip.

There is a lot more to it than just coin flips. If you know how to play the bubble you can make a decent profit. It's all about knowing when to call and when to fold based off of your risk vs. reward. You are trying to guarantee a profit every time you play an SNG. Therefore, knowing your chip position in relation to the other three remaining is crucial for determining when to make a push or a call. This is just the tip of the iceberg. You have to know this for all SNGs that you play not just turbos if you want to be successful.

[gingerwizard]

Well I have been playing a lot of 6max 10NL recently and it is fun.

Yes push/fold comes into standard a lot (and it is the main skill), I just feel there is more poker in a standard tourny. Or maybe I feel that I have more time to get reads and more hands at each blind level so that I can wait for better shoves than the ones I take in turbos. I also feel that the bubble play is more subtle in standard as the slower blinds can allow for post flop play in earlier bubbles.

E.g. you are down to the bubble at the 75/150 level with even stacks. You are not in push/fold territory and waiting for a push is a mistake.

[gingerwizard]

Poker is fun.
Turbos = less poker
Ergo Turbos = less fun.

Money is great and I would hate to be a losing player but I still wanna play poker, not spend 15-25 minutes waiting for a good shove and taking a coin flip.

There is a lot more to it than just coin flips. If you know how to play the bubble you can make a decent profit. It's all about knowing when to call and when to fold based off of your risk vs. reward. You are trying to guarantee a profit every time you play an SNG. Therefore, knowing your chip position in relation to the other three remaining is crucial for determining when to make a push or a call. This is just the tip of the iceberg. You have to know this for all SNGs that you play not just turbos if you want to be successful.

I agree with this and it's one of the things I am learning. I still believe that Turbos are a 'harsher' environment in which to do this.

[Sprayed]

Poker is fun.
Turbos = less poker
Ergo Turbos = less fun.

Money is great and I would hate to be a losing player but I still wanna play poker, not spend 15-25 minutes waiting for a good shove and taking a coin flip.

There is a lot more to it than just coin flips. If you know how to play the bubble you can make a decent profit. It's all about knowing when to call and when to fold based off of your risk vs. reward. You are trying to guarantee a profit every time you play an SNG. Therefore, knowing your chip position in relation to the other three remaining is crucial for determining when to make a push or a call. This is just the tip of the iceberg. You have to know this for all SNGs that you play not just turbos if you want to be successful.

I agree with this and it's one of the things I am learning. I still believe that Turbos are a 'harsher' environment in which to do this.

Good players that understand ICM make a good living off of turbos.

[gingerwizard]

Yes but they openly concede that ROI is less from Turbos than from standard, as is mine. I do understand ICM, but it takes practise and instincts to know in the heat of battle when calls/pushes are correct in the sense of ICM. Very easy to find out afterwards.

[Da GOAT]

but it takes practise and instincts to know in the heat of battle when calls/pushes are correct in the sense of ICM. Very easy to find out afterwards.

very true that practice makes perfect, plus SNGPT doesnt take long to revise after a game

[Wooderson]

Good players that understand ICM make a good living off of turbos.

I've read about ICM a bit and trying to gain understanding, but can you elaborate a bit on your above comment?

[Sprayed]

Good players that understand ICM make a good living off of turbos.

I've read about ICM a bit and trying to gain understanding, but can you elaborate a bit on your above comment?

I have read and heard that those that are good at identifying correct push/call situations make good money multi tabling turbo SNGs. It's a grind, but it can pay fairly well.

[TLR]

I am in the process of slowly migrating to the $60, I think they are tougher then the $27, and signfically so, since the play tends to be moch more TA

[FlyingSaucy]

I am in the process of slowly migrating to the $60, I think they are tougher then the $27, and signfically so, since the play tends to be moch more TA

The $27s are taggy enough for me to be annoyed, I can't imagine the 60's.

This thread made me come to a realization that in order to maintain my sanity, I can not play poker by focusing on profiting. I've found that when I play poker as a fun intellectual challenge, and the money flows naturally after that. Once you know sngs, the play doesn't become much more challenging as you move up the levels - the competition just gets better. As you move up the levels, the same basic strategy and bubble play techniques are used, only with a decreasing affect for each level you step up because there are fewer fish. (Unless I'm missing some deeper lagg strategy that can miraculously cause someone's ROI to jump from 10 to 20. Anyone care to fill me in?) This decrease in fish and static strategy means variance kicks in stronger since you are playing more people who are your approximate equals. This especially applies to turbos because the time that it takes to get to the pushfest has shrunk considerably, making it easier for would-be fish to understand the importance of early tightness.

MTTs will give you a tournament setting that relies more heavily on deeper long-view skills. MTTs also provide a higher percentage of fish. They also allow you to take longer, but gentler downswings as opposed to 10 OTM finishes in a row that cuts a third out of your BR. MTTs also provide more extreme upswings.

So to me, I've given turbo single table SNGs enough of a try and feel that I'm simply not developing any skill that will improve my profitability AND enjoyment of this game in the long run. They should and will be thrown into my mix of games as a means of keeping my broader skill set tweaked, but only in the context of improving my MTT game. I just can't see myself doing a ton of single table sngs at much higher levels and still getting any enjoyment out of it. I'd rather spend time improving my deep stack and MTT play since those games provide more future potential

[Da GOAT]

good post saucy, im feel the same way about the developement part where you feel you have stagnated to a degree at SNGs. simply moving up does not bring you into a different world or force you to re-invent yourself, i know from my experiences at trying the $27s that you near play a similiar game if you are a solid player.

this is a reason i have switched to cash (but i mix in SNGs so i dont lose the skill sets), cash is so much deeper in thought which im finding very interesting and has brought back some ''wow i didnt know that'' type thoughts. also got NLH T&P and the first 30 pages have opened my eyes further.

in a nutshell, i think it is good to switch frm ring to SNG to MTT to keep developing, thinking and having fun. FUN must still be part of the reason you play since you dont make much money in the beginning or even at $16s.

[rant]